CuriosityKills

Oh, yeah...I do think Vegans are a little crazy.

I once dated a Vegan who gave me After Eights as a present because they didn't have any milk in them.

Just because you're a vegan, it doesn't mean I have to be one too!

Primal

I eat meat because I like the taste. End of story, I like the taste enough to echew the health reasons and animal cruelty. Though I don't think the animal cruelty as is bad as some propoganda says. The modern day cow for example likely wants to sit around all day.

In any case, I don't kill creature unless there is a good reason to. The taste of meat for me is a good reason to kill a cow. Though the process is rather messy and time consuming so I'd rather other's kill the cow. And the actual butchering is rather disgusting so I'd rather not see it. I also tend to get attached to animals I care for or raise so I'd rather not be involved in that either. I'd just rather by burger meat at the store.

The annoying buzzing of a fly in my room a reason to kill the fly. In any case all feeding involves killing and yes, plants do feel pain, though they don't have nerves and not in the same way as humans. Plant "know" when they are damaged though.

Meat and cheese are my staples. They taste good enough to me to over-ride the my stigmas against contributing to the deaths of animals and health risks, though I bet those are somewhat exaggerated as well.

GPLindsey

Veganism and fundamentalist Christianity have more than just their militancy in common. Some creationists argue that there were no carnivorous animals prior to the Fall, because defense/attack structures in animals are thought to be an outcome of Original Sin. After the Rapture, of course, we are told that the lion will lay down with the lamb. It seems fundamentalist Christians see vegetarianism as part of the sinless life before the Fall and after the Second Coming, yet they don't obstain from those Wed nite, Bible study chicken dinners in the mean time. Hypocrites!

But imagine the picture this now paints of Heaven. Not only an eternity with fundamentalist Christians--but an eternity with Vegan fundamentalist Christians!! Maybe Heaven and Hell are the same place after all.

99Percent

Yeah, I think at the root of Christian and Vegan fundamentalism is a lack of self worth. Both at the root of the belief is that humans are worthless beings, not deserving to live at all.

Bree

I'm extremely confused about this "all vegans are militant, terrible people" bit.

First of all, I know several vegans who are so simply because they feel that not eating meat or animal products enhances their health. I have three girlfriends (girls who are friends) who are strict vegans because they have endometriosis, and not eating meat or animal products seems to lessen their symptoms. They don't even eat honey (!!!), but does that make them militant or terrible? Does that make them fundamentalist? Of course not - they could care less if, when we go out to sushi, I help myself to a nice slab of tuna.

Now, granted - I have lots against those who are vegans simply because it's trendy or because they think it makes some sort of environmentalist statement. I like to say that only in the West can we afford to be as picky about what we DON'T eat.

That being said, I'm a vegetarian for endometriosis reasons...it's not like I don't like steak, it's just that it makes me feel, well...shitty.

The AntiChris

DigitalChicken

I'm intrigued to know what you understand by "empathy".

Presumably you're equally puzzled by the fact that although we have legislation protecting animals from cruelty, there is a complete absence of legislation protecting plants from cruelty?

Chris

seanie

Originally posted by CuriosityKills:

1) Animals that are raised for meat don't have the quality of life that wild animals have. Did you know that many animals develope defects just from the fact that they are pent up so close together that thye don't have any room to move or grow? Many will never see a blue sky or have the feeling of green grass under their hoofs/claws.

As you say eat wild animals. Urban dwellers should try the zoo.

Panda's can't even summon up the will to shag. You'd be putting them out of their misery.

Or failing that eat free range ones. The ones that had happy, fulfilling lives right up to the point the bolt gun shattered their cerebral cortex.

2)Producers feed their animals with antibiotics and hormones that are passed on through the meat. The doctor advises not to take other people's antibiotics and hormones, why would it be any better for me coming from my meat?

Again as you say eat wild animals, free range and organic. Sloths in particular are easy to hunt.

3)Land that is used for grazing cattle for beef could be used to grow grains which would feed many more people than the cows that are grown on that land.

People aren't starving in the world because of a lack of food. They're starving because of indifference. We already have more than enough food to go round. We just choose not to distribute it.

And while switching to grain would support many more people I think we should ask just how many more people we want. Don't get me wrong. People are swell an' all. But at some point I think we'll have more than enough to be going along with.

4)Cows produce a crazy amount of methane. This contributes to global warming.

All the more reason to eat the dangerous bastards.

5)I do not feel properly thankful to the animal that just gave its life to feed me. I will eat an animal only if I can kill it and share its suffering. I do not want to kill therefore, I will not eat meat.

I don't want to work in rat infested tunnels, wading thigh deep in piss and shit. However that doesn't stop me from using the toilet and taking advantage of our splendid sewage system.

Some tasks are unpleasant. Get other people to do them.

I don't want to kill either. I'll pay someone else to do it for me, wipe off the blood and wrap it in cellophane.

6)I really like tofu.

I fully recognise your right to choose the exact nature of your self-delusion.

brighid

Curiosity,

B]1) Animals that are raised for meat don't have the quality of life that wild animals have. Did you know that many animals develope defects just from the fact that they are pent up so close together that thye don't have any room to move or grow? Many will never see a blue sky or have the feeling of green grass under their hoofs/claws.[/B]

Some animals that are raised for meat do not have the quality of life that some wild animals enjoy and experience the things you say. However, free range animals that aren’t given hormones and antibiotics (except of course if they are ill and need them) wouldn’t seem to fall under this objectionable system. In that case, I see nothing wrong with purchasing free range, organic meat.

It is actually better to eat the wild animal that has been grass fed then it is to purchase meat from animals that have been grain fed. The omega ratios are far different and grass fed animals have an omega range almost identical to fish, where as grain fed meat producing animals produce high levels of Omega 6’s (and the ration is something like 20:1 of Omega 6 to 3.) High levels of Omega 6 appear to be linked to heart disease and other nasty things. So, if we simply went back to how our ancestors ate there would be none of the terrible side effects we see today. Also – if we exercised more.

Futhermore, refined grains such as white wheat and rice by in large have not been found to be good for you and should be avoided, along with other refined foods like sugar.

3)Land that is used for grazing cattle for beef could be used to grow grains which would feed many more people than the cows that are grown on that land.

As another poster stated we have more then enough land to feed everyone. It is the distribution of those resources that is the problem and in a discussion of morality I personally have more empathy for the millions of starving children in this country (and around the world.) I think the land can be put to better use and I would opt for that land being turned into green space or economical housing, but prefer the green space in order to curb more destruction of the environment and suburban sprawl. Do we really need another strip mall or row of identical houses?

What should we do with the millions upon millions of livestock we do have? They would need somewhere to roam, somewhere to graze and because we have destroyed nearly all of their natural predators cows (just like deer in many areas) would destroy the land they live on and become parasites of sorts.

4)Cows produce a crazy amount of methane. This contributes to global warming.

Could you please provide some statistics and references for that? Cows have been around for … I don’t know … centuries. All over the world and yet global warming really was never an issue until the industrialization of modern times. I bet the billions of dinosaurs that make cows look like ants by comparison let out a lot more noxious gas into the atmosphere then ALL the cows over ALL the centuries ever had. I wonder if the methane problem could be solved by allowing them to be free range and grass fed once again?

5)I do not feel properly thankful to the animal that just gave its life to feed me. I will eat an animal only if I can kill it and share its suffering. I do not want to kill therefore, I will not eat meat.

I think this is a perfectly acceptable choice to make. I don’t want to kill anything either. Frankly, I don’t know how to since it has never been a necessity for me in this day and age. I would kill something like a cow, or a chicken, fish, or other tasty animal if I didn’t have the conveniences of modern times. Those conveniences are what make a vegetarian lifestyle livable, where as if you were living back in say the 1800’s and didn’t live in an urban setting a vegetarian lifestyle would not be able to provide you with enough calories to live. Not to mention the lack of refrigeration, changing seasons and being at the mercy of Mother Nature would make it very difficult to sustain a vegetarian lifestyle – unless you lived in a climate that supported year round harvesting of fruits and veggies.

6)I really like tofu.

I personally find tofu rather disgusting. Also, I can’t have soy because of my hormonal imbalance and estrogen dominance. Soy is a pretty good source of protein, but eating it in the quantities I need to build and sustain lean muscle mass worsens my condition because it is a natural estrogen.

I know many people who are allergic and do not tolerate soy at all as well.

I do not appreciate the militant attitudes of any group: Christian, feminist, Vegan or otherwise. I am well aware that just because someone is a member of one of those groups that this does not automatically equate them with radical or militant behavior and I personally choose to judge people as individuals, rather then stereotype according to what some who call themselves their brethren may or may not do. I personally dislike it when I am considered to be a man-hating Feminazi because I happen to support women’s rights such as equal pay, equal access to education, abortion rights, etc. I can’t tell you how many times I have been called a Feminazi, even though I do not subscribe to the militant attitudes or actions of some feminist groups. I try to extend the courtesy and benefit of the doubt I want in interactions with my fellow human beings even if it is not always returned.

I have experienced some radical vegans, not directly but through reading their literature. I worked for an environmental group for a while and I was the ONLY meat eater in the group (and coincidentally the only non-smoker or drug user). Every night before canvassing we all sat down at a restaurant in the area we would be canvassing and at dinner. Never once did any of them getting an attitude with me, or disrespect my choices. Most of the group was vegan and other were vegetarian of different sorts. We had some very interesting discussions about their ideas and my own, but not a single one ever told me that the delicious, juicy burger I was eating was a murdered cow and I was something the equivalent to Hitler because of it. I recently spent a week with friends in California that are vegan and no problems either. They hate proselytizing, militant veggie types just as much as I do. Perhaps because my friend is a professor of Philosophy, and teaches Logic and Critical Thinking she is able to have a rational discussion about differing points of view without taking it personally. She has been attacked more often by meat-eaters who assume she things they are immoral for eating meat. She doesn’t personally like it and she doesn’t do it (along with her husband) but she is completely against imposing this issue on anyone.

So in discussing the morality of a particular group I think it should be remembered that their will always be those who fit the stereotypical traits of said group, but that all people deserve the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to be judge by their actions alone.

Brighid

Kip

1. Natural desires do not justify action. Vegans do not condmen the desire to eat meat, only the eating meat itself.

2. The idea that children can not be healthy vegetarians or that children need to eat 12 bowls of beans a day is ridiculous.

3. Just as a natural desire (to eat meat, or kill another person) is no justification to do so, neither is the pleasure of doing so. These ideas are related and are both false. Also, mocking a vegan diet suggests that you are not very familiar with them. I eat a near-vegan diet and the food is varied and delicious.

4. I would not say that animals are any better or more moral than humans (I tend to prefer the latter!) and I do not think most vegans would commit to that claim either.

I eat almost a vegan diet, although I never call myself a vegan. I cannot tell if you are being serious or joking. Either way, your bothering to post this suggests that you are feeling slightly insecure about your meat-eating or at least curious about veganism.

Allow me to remind you of some simple, compelling facts. I am a vegetarian if for no other reason that vegetarians outlive non-vegetarians by about six years. We simply live much longer. The odds of a vegetarian living to age 80 are 180% of the odds of a non-vegetarian. Veganism almost eliminates the risk for heart and coronary disease, the number one cause of death, and vegans have drastically lower rates of cancer, diabetes, and many other diseases. The health benefits are too many to cite. Plus, you are now exempt from the morally dubious act of contibuting to the execution of animals and eating their flesh!

seanie

Originally posted by Kip:

1. Natural desires do not justify action. Vegans do not condmen the desire to eat meat, only the eating meat itself.

Condemn the sin but not the sinner eh?

I'm familiar with the concept. Can't say I've been too impressed by those who've put it into practice.

2. The idea that children can not be healthy vegetarians or that children need to eat 12 bowls of beans a day is ridiculous.

I should hope not. Think of the contribution to global warming. We'd have to cull the little buggers.

3. Just as a natural desire (to eat meat, or kill another person) is no justification to do so, neither is the pleasure of doing so. These ideas are related and are both false. Also, mocking a vegan diet suggests that you are not very familiar with them. I eat a near-vegan diet and the food is varied and delicious.

As you yourself have pointed out the pleasure derived from something is not justification. I myself survive on a varied and delicious selection of booze and crisps. That doesn't make it right. You may find your diet delicious.

I don't give a fuck.

4. I would not say that animals are any better or more moral than humans (I tend to prefer the latter!) and I do not think most vegans would commit to that claim either.

Well this comes down to personal experience. I can't say most of the vegans I've met have appeared all that keen on humanity in general. What with all their morally dubious executing and eating the flesh of animals.

And, while I admit this is guilt by association, most (not all) of the vegans I've met have also been teetotal.

That un-nerves me.

I eat almost a vegan diet, although I never call myself a vegan. I cannot tell if you are being serious or joking. Either way, your bothering to post this suggests that you are feeling slightly insecure about your meat-eating or at least curious about veganism.

Or it suggests a straightforward dislike of vegans.

Sometimes the most obvious interpretation can be the correct one.

Allow me to remind you of some simple, compelling facts. I am a vegetarian if for no other reason that vegetarians outlive non-vegetarians by about six years. We simply live much longer. The odds of a vegetarian living to age 80 are 180% of the odds of a non-vegetarian. Veganism almost eliminates the risk for heart and coronary disease, the number one cause of death, and vegans have drastically lower rates of cancer, diabetes, and many other diseases. The health benefits are too many to cite. Plus, you are now exempt from the morally dubious act of contibuting to the execution of animals and eating their flesh!

Yeah.

But those 6 years are the years at the end.

The pissing and shitting yourself years.

The mistaking nurse for mother years.

The lonely years slumped confused in front of the TV in the care home, unvisited by your family because they never liked you anyway, what with your humourless moral superiority and your refusal to join in barbecues.

You can keep those years.

Your welcome to them.

I'll stick to the booze, cigs, and smokey bacon crisps.