HelenM

Originally posted by David Mathews:

I think that atheists, in the majority of cases, either still believe in God (subconsciously) or want to believe in God (consciously). The reason why atheists seek out arguments and debates with theists is not to find converts to atheism. Not at all. Atheists seek arguments and debates because they want to be converted.

I'm surprised to read that you think this.

Often conservative Christians say it, because they believe the Bible teaches it. And for them then it's true, period, and any supposed evidence to the contrary is not as true as the Bible.

However, I think I read that you do not necessarily view everything in the Bible as 'true'. So you are free from having to set aside the evidence of your five senses because of what it says. And so, you must be setting it aside based on your opinion. And I wonder why you would do that. If your opinion doesn't match what's around you, why not change it?

And I'm sure that whenever you say such a thing with atheists around they will disagree with you. If they wanted to be converted they would be. Especially all those who used to be Christians. All they have to do is return to what they used to believe. They have not which indicates they do not want to, I would say.

So, when they have denied your beliefs about their belief in God or desire to have one, why have you not believed them? Because you think they are 'in denial' of what they really believe/want?

How can you have meaningful interactions with people if your starting premise is "you are deceived about yourself or you are lying about your own desires/beliefs"? It's disrespectful, imo, to start there.

Wouldn't you be frustrated if an atheist told you he/she believes all theists don't really believe in God or all want to do away with that belief and be atheists? Wouldn't you wonder why he/sheh would think that? I would. Just as I wonder about what you think about atheists.

Of course, I might be mistaken. I can't look into your own soul.

Exactly. Your recognition of this makes me wonder why you hold such a strong view that they are lying/in denial.

Yet I do listen to you all very closely,

Perhaps so but that only makes it more surprising you haven't adjusted your beliefs about them to what they tell you is true about them.

I know a little about atheism.

If you knew more maybe you'd see they are telling the truth.

I may be lying about some of you, but I certainly am not lying about all of you.

I don't think you're lying but I do think you're wrong about every atheist here except maybe one or two quiet lurkers who haven't made up their mind against theism.

If you have any comments or objections, please state them.

I think I did!

My objection is that your opinions of atheists are not supported by the evidence. I wonder if they are a holdover from a more conservative theism you used to have, where you believed the Bible says all atheists are lying or in denial of their true desires.

love
Helen

sandlewood

Let’s not forget who came to who’s site and who is more likely to be doing the seeking.

This really cracks me up because you’ve said that you are interested in talking with atheists to find out what they think. But you don’t seem to be listening because you go on claiming that atheists think things they don’t. I’m saying now: I really, really don’t believe a god exists and I never have. Do you believe I know what I think? Whether I want to believe a god exists is irrelevant.

I was channel-flipping last week and I came upon a televangelist who was saying something about atheists so I listened for a minute. He claimed that atheists really believe in god because when they get to the lowest point in their life and they can’t do anything to fix the situation they yell out “Oh God!” And that means that “in their heart of hearts” (as he said) atheists really believe in god. What a schmuck. He has no idea. Or he does and he’s trying to see if he can put one over on his fellow Christians, telling them what they want to hear.

Vorkosigan

I think that atheists, in the majority of cases, either still believe in God (subconsciously) or want to believe in God (consciously). The reason why atheists seek out arguments and debates with theists is not to find converts to atheism. Not at all. Atheists seek arguments and debates because they want to be converted.

Atheists like who? Buddhists? Confucians? Pantheists? Yi Guan Dao? Falun Kong? Wiccans? Metaphysical Naturalists? Communists?

You gotta get your terminology right, Dave. How could a Communist from China who has never even heard of your particular deity have any secret desire to convert?

But Dave's just being provocative....as he well knowns, it is not atheism that is full of secret theism, but seminaries, convents, theological institutes, schools of religion and other religious institutes that are full of closet atheists....

Vorkosigan

nyx

Oh, God!

He's not listening....

madmax2976

Actually Answerer, you are quite right in your assessment. I came to this conclusion myself early on in this thread. I decided though that there were things that David stated that needed to be addressed, particularly his baseless assessments of atheism.

David does not adequately support a single claim he makes regarding atheism or even his own theism for that matter. He certainly doesn't support anything that is on his webpage. (Why he keeps it up there I have no idea as he apparently no longer agrees with much of what he wrote)

However he makes these statements anyway with the obvious implication that they should be considered true or that he at least has some logical reason for considering them true. Come to find out, neither is the case.

But the reality is, its sometimes very difficult to capture a person's position with any semblence of clarity. David's answers and method of discussion were sufficiently obtuse as to make this even more difficult than usual. Hence we have upteen pages of posts with not really much to say. Par for the course I suppose.

I guess one thing we did learn is that David is the most unique member of the C of C I have ever met. So unique, that why he still affiliates himself with such a fundamentalist group is completely bewildering. His statements here have demonstrated he is on the very fringe of liberal Christianity.

But that at least is a good thing - certainly preferable to having him be a fundy.

emphryio

I agree MadMax. I speculated earlier what Dave's actual reason for being here was. Was it to sharpen his "debating sword" or actually try to convert someone? Apparently he actually thought he would convert someone. He came here not in the spirit of cooperation and exchanging information, he came here for competition and trying to win a debate however possible.

It might be nice if we could divide the secular web into people wanting either the first or second. I have no desire to talk to people trying to "win debates".

David Mathews

Hello karlydee,

David: Lao Tzu was not a Christian, by no means. Nor was Lao Tzu a Jew or a Muslim, or any type of monotheist at all.

Lao Tzu is relevant to the discussion because he was familiar with the mystery. I believe that atheists don't appreciate the mystery, they consider that all questions of existence are solved (somehow) by naturalism.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Answerer:

David: There are paradoxes in all religions and philosophies. I did not say that Lao Tzu was talking about the same thing that the Bible talks about because he does not. I would never quote the Tao Te Ching as an evidence for the Bible or Christianity. My interest in Taoism is a direct result of Taoism not being the Bible nor Christianity.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Theli,

David: Bold people do embrace their own ignorance. Bold people can acknowledge their own ignorance because they have nothing to hide, nothing to fear and nothing to conceal.

David: There are perhaps four billion people on the earth who are religious in some sense, I don't imagine that war and ignorance are an accurate characterization of what religion provides for them.

David: That is good, appropriate behavior for an atheist.

David: That is correct, but I don't imagine that they gathered all of the Biblical knowledge before they decided to become atheists. A lot of intense Bible study occurs among those who attempt to find fault with the Bible. This sort of behavior indicates a lingering fascination and attraction to the Bible's message.

David: It does make me feel better, although I do concede that I was merely speculating about the motives of atheists and do not have any means of verifying the claim.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Starspun

What was mysterious back then, could be commonplace today.
Another view: one that grows with a belief in the supernatural, then sees this view as unreasonable, will still be inclined toward 'mysteries.' My wife is a good example. She was brought up in the C of C (fundamentalist parents). Through her own reason, she deconverted, but, still likes to THINK there is something more than a naturalistic view of the world.
Now, let's view someone raised in an atheistic home. The person doesn't have a need for something more because that person hasn't had a gawd or mystery to rely on through much of his/her life. Therefore:
Mr. Lao's mysteries are nothing more than remnants of his imagination and his childhood supernatural teachings.
I think alot of us can relate.

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Starspun ]</p>