Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Spirit Branded · 02-08-2002, 04:17 PM

Hello Mageth

We appear to be close to agreeing that philosophical and spiritual ideas ... and some scientific phenomena ... could be and often definitely are ... in the eye of the beholder.

The quality of perception (or lack of it) seems to be quite independent of the phenomenon itself.

That may go a long way to explaining why the excessively sceptical don't get some philosopical and spiritual truths.

They just don't want to look at the rainbow.

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

Mageth · 02-08-2002, 04:19 PM

I'm with BLoggins on this one. Once more, Helen, you have earned my deep respect and admiration. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Mageth · 02-08-2002, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:
Hello Mageth

We appear to be close to agreeing that philosophical and spiritual ideas ... and some scientific phenomena ... could be and often definitely are ... in the eye of the beholder.

The quality of perception (or lack of it) seems to be quite independent of the phenomenon itself.

That may go a long way to explaining why the excessively sceptical don't get some philosopical and spiritual truths.

They just don't want to look at the rainbow.

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

I must admit, you pretty much lost me here. I don't think we're close to agreeing at all.

Rainbows are, so to speak, in the "eye of the beholder." But there is a naturalistic, logical explanation for them. What you are seeing is the mind's interpretation of an actual physical phenomenon. The quality of perception of a rainbow is totally dependent on the phenomenon. It is reducible to a formula; angle of the sun, position of the observer relative to the rain, etc.

Philosophical and spiritual "truths," however, are IMO <often, if not always> totally constructed within the mind, with no "real" phenomenon as the root cause. Perhaps the reason why the skeptic doesn't "get" some philosophical or spiritual "truths" is that, in essence, there is no "truth" to be had. Only illusions created in the "eye of the beholder."

And, FYI, I tried "looking at the rainbow" for most of my life. Only in the last couple of years have I finally admitted that there
is no rainbow; only the constructions of my, and others', minds.

Spirit Branded · 02-08-2002, 04:34 PM

Hi Turton

If that was an annihilation ... America won the Vietnam War

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

Spirit Branded · 02-08-2002, 04:46 PM

Hello again Mageth

You said :-
I must admit, you pretty much lost me here. I don't think we're close to agreeing at all.

Reply
Well why did you raise the perception issue?

You said :-
Rainbows are, so to speak, in the "eye of the beholder." But there is a naturalistic, logical explanation for them.

Reply
Please make a decision ... are rainbows illusions or not illusions? You seem to want it both ways.

You said
What you are seeing is the mind's interpretation of an actual physical phenomenon.

Reply
Exactly

You said
The quality of perception of a rainbow is totally dependent on the phenomenon. It is reducible to a formula; angle of the sun, position of the observer relative to the rain, etc.

Reply
I agree. So at least we agree on that.

You said
Philosophical and spiritual "truths," however, are IMO <often, if not always> totally constructed within the mind, with no "real" phenomenon as the root cause.

Reply
If the perception is one issue and the phenomenon is another how can you be sure that your perceived conclusion is right?

You said
Perhaps the reason why the skeptic doesn't "get" some philosophical or spiritual "truths" is that, in essence, there is no "truth" to be had. Only illusions created in the "eye of the beholder."

Reply
If you perceive incorrectly you are bound to reach that conclusion, even though a real phenomenon exists. You just miss it.

You said
And, FYI, I tried "looking at the rainbow" for most of my life.

Reply
That's what everyone who gives up says, but it doesn't make you right.

You said
Only in the last couple of years have I finally admitted that there is no rainbow;

Reply
That is only your perception.

You said
only the constructions of my, and others', minds.

Reply
And I am supposed to rely on the unreliable perceptions of the human mind?

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

Mageth · 02-08-2002, 05:00 PM

Please make a decision ... are rainbows illusions or not illusions? You seem to want it both ways.

Not at all. There is no actual physical object labeled a "rainbow." What you see is an "illusion" created by your mind. There is no rainbow that you can reach, touch, taste or smell. In a sense, it's totally in the "eye of the beholder." You are not "seeing" the physisical phenomenon; your mind is constructing an illusory vision of the phenomenon, and projecting it into "space" so that it appears to be a physical presence (the rainbow hanging in the air, off in the distance). There is no rainbow out there, only an illusory image projected by your mind.

If you perceive incorrectly you are bound to reach that conclusion, even though a real phenomenon exists. You just miss it.

No; investigating the phenomenon behind the illusory rainbow determines that there are physical causes external to the brain that are contributing to the "illusion" your mind is generating. Investigating the causes for philosophical and spiritual truths determines that there are no real, external phenomenon behind the illusions that your mind is generating (other than the physical, chemical actions of the brain).

That's what everyone who gives up says, but it doesn't make you right.

Who said I've given up? Produce some evidence for real, external spiritual/philosophical phenomenon and I'll reconsider. A lifetime of open-minded searching on my part has produced exactly nothing.

You, I predict, will not be able to produce anything concrete, either. Only projections of the "rainbow" in your mind.

And I am supposed to rely on the unreliable perceptions of the human mind?

AFAIK, it's all we have to rely on. You know nothing (and are nothing) outside of your mind's perceptions.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

Spirit Branded · 02-08-2002, 05:52 PM

Mageth

You used the Rainbow Analogy to portray illusion.

You know perfectly well that two people are incabable of seeing an illustion.

Thousands, Hundreds of Thousands, Millions of people have been touched in their lives by the spirit of Christ.

Your perception that these reflected perceptions of Christand actual changes in people's lives are not real reflections of Christ are exactly that ... a perception.

People are the droplets in the rainbow, Christ is the light that shines through them, and we are all potential witnesses to the truth.

Mageth I am not inclined to rely on the faulty human perception of people like yourself whose eyes are turned away from the truth.

I regard you as an unreliable witness.

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

Gurdur · 02-08-2002, 06:01 PM

The penny's just dropped - it must be Hilarius.

What I want to know is, how come Hilarius just flat-out ignores my own post? And me a fellow (if former) Sydneysider too?

Tsk. Must be one of those stuck-up North Shore types.

Me being just an Alexandria prole , 'n all

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]

Viti · 02-08-2002, 06:23 PM

edited because Spirit Branded isn't worth it

RW...we have never really had any type of exchange, but I am happy to add myself to the list of your supporters. This is what MY values dictate...as a fellow human.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]

Eudaimonist · 02-08-2002, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rainbow walking:
For me the pretense has come to a quiet but final end. I have searched my heart and mind and found it to be desolate of reasons to continue to defend the pretense. As I turn and walk away from the cross I can hear the echo of "It is finished."

Wow, I almost missed this. I'm astonished, yet pleasantly so. You might not be able to fully appreciate this right now, but congratulations.

Quote:

[Christianity] is just a bridge and not a shrine.

You may find better shrines.

I wish you happiness and a good life... though not simply because of your recent enlightenment, but because I wish that for everyone.

02-08-2002, 05:00 PM	#146
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Please make a decision ... are rainbows illusions or not illusions? You seem to want it both ways. Not at all. There is no actual physical object labeled a "rainbow." What you see is an "illusion" created by your mind. There is no rainbow that you can reach, touch, taste or smell. In a sense, it's totally in the "eye of the beholder." You are not "seeing" the physisical phenomenon; your mind is constructing an illusory vision of the phenomenon, and projecting it into "space" so that it appears to be a physical presence (the rainbow hanging in the air, off in the distance). There is no rainbow out there, only an illusory image projected by your mind. If you perceive incorrectly you are bound to reach that conclusion, even though a real phenomenon exists. You just miss it. No; investigating the phenomenon behind the illusory rainbow determines that there are physical causes external to the brain that are contributing to the "illusion" your mind is generating. Investigating the causes for philosophical and spiritual truths determines that there are no real, external phenomenon behind the illusions that your mind is generating (other than the physical, chemical actions of the brain). That's what everyone who gives up says, but it doesn't make you right. Who said I've given up? Produce some evidence for real, external spiritual/philosophical phenomenon and I'll reconsider. A lifetime of open-minded searching on my part has produced exactly nothing. You, I predict, will not be able to produce anything concrete, either. Only projections of the "rainbow" in your mind. And I am supposed to rely on the unreliable perceptions of the human mind? AFAIK, it's all we have to rely on. You know nothing (and are nothing) outside of your mind's perceptions. [ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

02-08-2002, 06:01 PM	#148
Gurdur Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Buggered if I know Posts: 12,410	The penny's just dropped - it must be Hilarius. What I want to know is, how come Hilarius just flat-out ignores my own post? And me a fellow (if former) Sydneysider too? Tsk. Must be one of those stuck-up North Shore types. Me being just an Alexandria prole , 'n all [ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

02-08-2002, 06:23 PM	#149
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	edited because Spirit Branded isn't worth it RW...we have never really had any type of exchange, but I am happy to add myself to the list of your supporters. This is what MY values dictate...as a fellow human. [ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

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02-08-2002, 04:17 PM	#141
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Hello Mageth We appear to be close to agreeing that philosophical and spiritual ideas ... and some scientific phenomena ... could be and often definitely are ... in the eye of the beholder. The quality of perception (or lack of it) seems to be quite independent of the phenomenon itself. That may go a long way to explaining why the excessively sceptical don't get some philosopical and spiritual truths. They just don't want to look at the rainbow. Blessings and Peace Spirit Branded

02-08-2002, 04:19 PM	#142
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I'm with BLoggins on this one. Once more, Helen, you have earned my deep respect and admiration. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

02-08-2002, 04:34 PM	#144
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Hi Turton If that was an annihilation ... America won the Vietnam War Blessings and Peace Spirit Branded

02-08-2002, 04:46 PM	#145
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Hello again Mageth You said :- I must admit, you pretty much lost me here. I don't think we're close to agreeing at all. Reply Well why did you raise the perception issue? You said :- Rainbows are, so to speak, in the "eye of the beholder." But there is a naturalistic, logical explanation for them. Reply Please make a decision ... are rainbows illusions or not illusions? You seem to want it both ways. You said What you are seeing is the mind's interpretation of an actual physical phenomenon. Reply Exactly You said The quality of perception of a rainbow is totally dependent on the phenomenon. It is reducible to a formula; angle of the sun, position of the observer relative to the rain, etc. Reply I agree. So at least we agree on that. You said Philosophical and spiritual "truths," however, are IMO <often, if not always> totally constructed within the mind, with no "real" phenomenon as the root cause. Reply If the perception is one issue and the phenomenon is another how can you be sure that your perceived conclusion is right? You said Perhaps the reason why the skeptic doesn't "get" some philosophical or spiritual "truths" is that, in essence, there is no "truth" to be had. Only illusions created in the "eye of the beholder." Reply If you perceive incorrectly you are bound to reach that conclusion, even though a real phenomenon exists. You just miss it. You said And, FYI, I tried "looking at the rainbow" for most of my life. Reply That's what everyone who gives up says, but it doesn't make you right. You said Only in the last couple of years have I finally admitted that there is no rainbow; Reply That is only your perception. You said only the constructions of my, and others', minds. Reply And I am supposed to rely on the unreliable perceptions of the human mind? Blessings and Peace Spirit Branded

02-08-2002, 05:52 PM	#147
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Mageth You used the Rainbow Analogy to portray illusion. You know perfectly well that two people are incabable of seeing an illustion. Thousands, Hundreds of Thousands, Millions of people have been touched in their lives by the spirit of Christ. Your perception that these reflected perceptions of Christand actual changes in people's lives are not real reflections of Christ are exactly that ... a perception. People are the droplets in the rainbow, Christ is the light that shines through them, and we are all potential witnesses to the truth. Mageth I am not inclined to rely on the faulty human perception of people like yourself whose eyes are turned away from the truth. I regard you as an unreliable witness. Blessings and Peace Spirit Branded

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