worldling

What if this humanist manifesto included the line "all of these words were God-breathed"? Would that make them more meaningful to anyone? We could all then pretend that the document wasn't merely the opinions of those who wrote and signed it, but the actual words of the creator of the universe. Would people be more comfortable with that?

Of course not. That is what makes the Humanist Manifesto arguably the most evolved and intelligent statement of human ethics in history. It dispenses with the pretence of any supernatural provenance which gives the "holy books" of the traditional religionists their imagined authority.

There is a difference between pretending that a deity has given humans "inherent worth and dignity," and acting as if they had it anyway.

The tail-less kite analogy, although it was meant to be pejorative, is not too far off the mark. But it applies tto the human state in general, whether all humans admit it or not. We are all attached to the same line, but only the religionist feels the need to pretend he has a tail.

GeoTheo

I am just not as impressed with Mankind as the average Humanist, I guess. I am too skeptical of human nature. So I appeal to a higher power. I do not feel that man is at the pinacle of the Universe and the measure of all things. That is probably why I am a political conservative and don't think a big centralized government can know what is best for me and take care of all my problems. I think government is pretty scary. I think Europe under the European Union and a common curency is pretty scary.
Socialist Societies always subjigate the rights of the individual to that of the State. So think of me as deluded, but my Faith is not in mankind alone.

Starboy

GeoTheo, if there were such a thing as “God given rights” such manifestos or declarations would not be necessary. It would be like declaring we have the right to gravity. The fact that mankind must create the framework that is used to live in harmony is further evidence that there is no such thing as a “God given right.”

Starboy

Grad Student Humanist

You can appeal to all of the "higher powers" you want, day and night, for the rest of your life.

None of them exist.

Eudaimonist

Then everything is okay between us. Thanks.

worldling

That is a rational stance.
Oops. Pretending that there is a higher power to appeal to? No longer rational.
If you think humanists think this, then you don't have a clue.
You think a big centralized pretend government knows what's best for you, and can take care or all your problems: your big Pretend Government in the sky.

fishbulb

Why does the observation that human nature is flawed lead to the conclusion that there is a higher power? Perhaps human nature, flawed as it is, is the best there is.

I think you have been brainwashed by too much political indoctrination. Have you asked a representative sample of Scandinavians if they would be happier trading their state medicare for the right to choose whatever HMO they could afford?

Individualism and independence are only important insofar as we value having these traits. A society that preserves individual freedom in order to promote happiness and contentment is a fine thing, but a society that promotes individual freedom as though it is the only thing that people want or need in order to be happy is a hollow parody. Societies which claim that people are free just because they are free from government regulation, even though they are still subject to the tyrranny of markets, lobby groups, and their fellow citizens make a mockery out of the concept of freedom. How can someone who must choose between going to school and paying for lilfe-saving medication be considered free? Sensible regulation by responsible governments increases individual freedom. Degenerate cases like Soviet communism and neo-capitalism destroy it.

We have complicated and contradictory needs. We desire a certain amount freedom, but we also desire a certain amount of order and conformity. (Or perhaps we desire freedom for ourselves, but don't want our neighbours to be allowed to act too differently from what we consider proper; stop signs exist to make other drivers stop, not us.) We value independence and self-reliance, but we are also a caring species by nature, and desire both the protection of the group and its shared resources, as well as to contribute to the welfare of those around us.

Words like "socialism" and "capitalism" are mostly useful as labels to differentiate the good guys from the bad guys. The myth of socialism as a system that subjugates individual happiness to the greater glory of the state is just as false as the myth of capitalism as a system which enables anyone who is willing to work hard to succeed and be comfortable. Sure, there are people in Bejing who will live an unhappy life as a result of the circumstances they have been placed in, but there are people in Compton who suffer the same fate and are in no better position to break free of their capitalist oppressors than those in Bejing are free to break free of their communist ones.

It is one thing to look forward to the end of degenerate authoritarian regimes: police and totalitarian states such as Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. But to oppose European style socialism not on solid practical grounds but on abstract philosophical grounds misses the point about why we have governments in the first place.

fando

Wow, Vonnegut is still kicking! Maybe I should get him to autograph some books before he throws in the towel...

njhartsh

I'm betting worldling was responding mainly to the "pinnacle of the Universe" bit, which is indeed a bizarre caricature of what humanists really believe. Many of us humanists are certainly optimistic--arguably too much so--about human capabilities, but that's a far cry from believing ourselves (individually or collectively) The Greatest End-All-Be-All Beings Imaginable. Absurdly overblown superlatives are the domain of conventional theism, not humanism. Humanists are all too well aware of the profuse ignorance and irrational fear held by our species; this hardly befits a group that puts humanity on a "pinnacle."

On the other hand, the second sentiment Geo references has a fairly distinguished humanist pedigree. The ancient Greek philosopher Protagoras reportedly wrote, "Man is the measure of all things, of things that are, that they are; and of things that are not, that they are not"--and I don't think he'd get much disagreement among modern humanists. As usual, the point is really just that besides humans, no one else seems to be doing any measuring.

Sure, there are human beings who try to give their particular measurings more cachet by pointing to invisible guys in the sky who allegedly back them up, but (1) it's unclear why we should believe the aforesaid invisible guys exist and (2) even if they do, it's no more clear why we should listen to them rather than to each other. Some of us have noticed that the behavioral codes pushed by alleged invisible guys in the sky tend to be pretty disgusting.

- Nathan

njhartsh

I think this form of argument, abjectly irrational though it is, has enormous power over most people. If you convince people that it would be really bad--better, that their lives will suck--unless X is true, they'll believe X is true pretty much regardless of how unsupported, patently silly or morally abhorrent X is.

We atheists and liberal theists are not immune to this fallacy, of course:The above is a nice sentiment and a common citation of freethinkers of many stripes; but "must"? Why "must"? How did ol' Tom ensure that this was true? What if conservative Christians have their facts right, and the top god in town really is a sadistic, psychotic genocidal maniac who gets off on "blindfolded fear" and nothing else? Who justifies his atrocities by hollering "I'm big and powerful [and sarcastic!], and you're puny and weak, so shut yer trap"? In that case, it seems to me that most good people really are screwed.

Thankfully, even sadistic, psychotic genocidal maniac deities are awfully unlikely to exist--but they're at least no less likely than nice, warm-fuzzy just deities. Life's tough, I guess.

- Nathan