Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Evangelion · 05-20-2003, 12:59 PM

How would you feel if the cops fined you 1.5x a month's salary when they caught you speeding?

It happens in Europe.

Evangelion · 05-20-2003, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Anssi Vanjoki, 44, was ordered to pay a fine of 116,000 euros (US$103,600) after being caught breaking the speed limit on his Harley Davidson motorbike in the Finnish capital, Helsinki.

Ab_Normal · 05-20-2003, 04:30 PM

You left off this part:

Quote:

Mr Vanjoki had to pay a fine equal to 14 days of his income in 1999, which was about 14m euros ($12.5m).

I like the idea of fines being tied to income. Some would say that driving while intoxicated is enough of a danger to society to warrant such a fine - I'm not sure I agree.

Loren Pechtel · 05-20-2003, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ab_Normal
You left off this part:

I like the idea of fines being tied to income. Some would say that driving while intoxicated is enough of a danger to society to warrant such a fine - I'm not sure I agree.

If there are going to be fines I do agree they should be tied to income. However, there's a big problem with traffic fines: They encourage cops to write as many tickets as possible.

What I would like to see is traffic offenses punished by community service. It has the same fairness benefit but doesn't provide an incentive to the state to punish technical but not moral wrongdoing.

Hayden · 05-20-2003, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loren Pechtel
If there are going to be fines I do agree they should be tied to income. However, there's a big problem with traffic fines: They encourage cops to write as many tickets as possible.

What I would like to see is traffic offenses punished by community service. It has the same fairness benefit but doesn't provide an incentive to the state to punish technical but not moral wrongdoing.

So, how much community service does $103,600 work out at?

Besides, community service costs the state money to administer.

Do you not feel that it's morally wrong to endanger other drivers and pedestrians?

HR

Ab_Normal · 05-20-2003, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loren Pechtel
If there are going to be fines I do agree they should be tied to income. However, there's a big problem with traffic fines: They encourage cops to write as many tickets as possible.

The "Click it or Ticket" scheme here in Washington directly incentivized officers to write tickets for seat belt violations - story here.

I don't think the officers or their departments should be rewarded for writing tickets. Making law enforcement budgets dependent upon fines and confiscations is wrong, in my view, and can lead to corruption. But I'm not sure community service is the solution either.

Ab_Normal · 05-20-2003, 05:04 PM

Oh, and back to the OP - the 1.5x monthly salary fine referred to in the story was for drunk driving, not speeding. [/nitpick]

Loren Pechtel · 05-20-2003, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Hayden
So, how much community service does $103,600 work out at?

Not a valid comparision.

Besides, community service costs the state money to administer.

So?

Do you not feel that it's morally wrong to endanger other drivers and pedestrians?

I don't believe most traffic tickets have anything to do with safety. The state wants money, tickets are a way to get it without raising taxes.
There's a guy in New York who got a ticket for *SITTING* on a milk crate. (NY Times, I don't the link convenient.) At the time the cop said they have to make their quota.

Loren Pechtel · 05-20-2003, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Ab_Normal
The "Click it or Ticket" scheme here in Washington directly incentivized officers to write tickets for seat belt violations - story here.

Here seat belt is a secondary offense--you can't be stopped for it. From what I've heard the way it works actually encourages you not to wear the belt--if they stop you and you aren't wearing your belt you get a seatbelt ticket instead of a speeding ticket.

I don't think the officers or their departments should be rewarded for writing tickets. Making law enforcement budgets dependent upon fines and confiscations is wrong, in my view, and can lead to corruption. But I'm not sure community service is the solution either.

The problem is so long as there is the financial incentive you'll have a hard time getting the system to be fair.

Bumble Bee Tuna · 05-21-2003, 12:21 AM

If giving tickets for speeding is a good idea, then what's the problem with it encouraging police to write tickets?

If it's a bad idea, why not abolish the speed limit/increase it? (my preferred option)

The only problem here would be if it were an incentive to write tickets where the offenses don't exist. I highly doubt this is a frequent occurence.

-B

05-20-2003, 12:59 PM	#1
Evangelion Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Walsall, UK Posts: 1,490	How about those speeding fines, eh? How would you feel if the cops fined you 1.5x a month's salary when they caught you speeding? It happens in Europe.

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05-20-2003, 05:04 PM	#7
Ab_Normal Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,842	Oh, and back to the OP - the 1.5x monthly salary fine referred to in the story was for drunk driving, not speeding. [/nitpick]

05-20-2003, 10:12 PM	#8
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	Originally posted by Hayden So, how much community service does $103,600 work out at? Not a valid comparision. *Besides, community service costs* the state money to administer. So? Do you not feel that it's morally wrong to endanger other drivers and pedestrians?** I don't believe most traffic tickets have anything to do with safety. The state wants money, tickets are a way to get it without raising taxes. There's a guy in New York who got a ticket for SITTING on a milk crate. (NY Times, I don't the link convenient.) At the time the cop said they have to make their quota.

05-20-2003, 10:17 PM	#9
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	Originally posted by Ab_Normal The "Click it or Ticket" scheme here in Washington directly incentivized officers to write tickets for seat belt violations - story here. Here seat belt is a secondary offense--you can't be stopped for it. From what I've heard the way it works actually encourages you not to wear the belt--if they stop you and you aren't wearing your belt you get a seatbelt ticket instead of a speeding ticket. I don't think the officers or their departments should be rewarded for writing tickets. Making law enforcement budgets dependent upon fines and confiscations is wrong, in my view, and can lead to corruption. But I'm not sure community service is the solution either. The problem is so long as there is the financial incentive you'll have a hard time getting the system to be fair.

05-21-2003, 12:21 AM	#10
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	If giving tickets for speeding is a good idea, then what's the problem with it encouraging police to write tickets? If it's a bad idea, why not abolish the speed limit/increase it? (my preferred option) The only problem here would be if it were an incentive to write tickets where the offenses don't exist. I highly doubt this is a frequent occurence. -B

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