Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rusting Car Bumper · 12-19-2002, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
Why is it intolerant to say "Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds" but OK to say "Jesus is Lord" or "he washes away the sins of the world"?

Because one is making blanket statements about the institutions and choices of others while the other speaks only of its own position.

DC

Shadowy Man · 12-19-2002, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Agreed. Its hard to gain sympathy when your message is "Your beliefs suck!"

But even if their sign didn't say that, anything it would say to support reason and naturalism would be construed as meaning "your beliefs suck."

PandaJoe · 12-19-2002, 01:09 PM

While I think it could be phrased better, let's face it. It'll be interpreted the same (or probably worse) by most people anyways.
I'd rather see a satirical sign, something along the lines of "You are worthless sinner who deserves to burn in Hell if you don't beleive in Jesus. Merry Christmas!".

Shadowy Man · 12-19-2002, 01:21 PM

<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/janfeb02/solsticesign.html" target="_blank">http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/janfeb02/solsticesign.html</a>

Quote:

The Foundation began erecting the sign in response to various religious displays and state/church entanglements at the State Capitol. One of the Foundation's first victories when it formed in the late 1970s was to halt public funding of an annual live nativity display at the State Capitol. The pageant continues with private funding, taking over the Capitol for one afternoon a year. When the annual state tree is lit, the governor and employees sponsor a "tree-lighting ceremony" featuring religious Christmas hymns. Then the state began permitting a lighted menorah.

In the 1990s the Foundation originally had erected a red-white-and-blue banner reading "State/Church: Keep Them Separate." Then-Gov. Tommy Thompson ordered the Foundation message ripped down in 1995, although the Foundation had a legal permit to hang it. His office issued guidelines permitting smaller signs to be erected.

scigirl · 12-19-2002, 01:27 PM

Isn't it true that pagans (who celebrate winter solstice) do in fact believe in gods and spirits?

scigirl

Toto · 12-19-2002, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl:
Isn't it true that pagans (who celebrate winter solstice) do in fact believe in gods and spirits?

scigirl

That's true, but secularists who do not believe in gods and spirits have also adopted the Solstice as an excuse for a party.

Living Dead Chipmunk · 12-19-2002, 05:24 PM

So now the pagans get to bitch about ATHEISTS stealing their holidays, too?

Geeze, how hard can it possibly be to come up with your own damn holiday?

12-20-2002, 12:44 PM

This isn't the first time that this sign has caused so much controversy:

Quote:

From a 1997 article in Freethought Today:

Two days after the Foundation's sign had gone up, attracting a lot of interest, Wisconsin's Governor Tommy Thompson put up yet another religious counter-sign in the rotunda:

"We walk by faith, not by sight. During this holiday season, we are thankful for the many blessings bestowed upon our great state, our communities and families. The strength of Wisconsin and her people comes from our deep faith in God and each other, as well as the values, traditions and religious holidays we celebrate. It is that abiding faith that lifts us, unites us and allows us to flourish as a state. And it is our faith that will make us even stronger as we enter a new year filled with hope and optimism. We wish you and your families a blessed and safe holiday season."
--Office of the Governor

Members of the governor's staff all donated from $3 to $5 to make the sign, with the Governor advertising he chipped in $3.

...

Governor Thompson, a Catholic, unveiled his office's sign, formally placing the Office of the Governor on record in support of one religion. "The vast majority of people in this state believe in the Christ child's birth," said this neutrality-clueless politician.

<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/jan_feb97/display.html" target="_blank">Article</a>

Now this a--hole Thompson is serving in Bush's cabinet.

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]

Rusting Car Bumper · 12-20-2002, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man:
But even if their sign didn't say that, anything it would say to support reason and naturalism would be construed as meaning "your beliefs suck."

Yes. And it would be a significant difference.

Its a much better story for the press if your sign only wishes goodwill to all people of all creeds or lack thereof and *then* someone defaces it.

You then have a real place to talk about the intolerance of the others. However, if they deface a sign which can be construed as intolerant (such as the sign which was defaced) then it can be seen as the pot calling the kettle black to cry about intolerance.

DC

Toto · 12-20-2002, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DigitalChicken:


. . . if they deface a sign which can be construed as intolerant (such as the sign which was defaced) then it can be seen as the pot calling the kettle black to cry about intolerance.

I don't think this is about tolerance, it's about vandalism and the separation of church and state.

But you're right, a more politically worded sign would have made a better story. There is a definite lack of strategic thinking in the freethought movement.

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12-19-2002, 01:09 PM	#13
PandaJoe Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Bloomington, Indiana Posts: 188	While I think it could be phrased better, let's face it. It'll be interpreted the same (or probably worse) by most people anyways. I'd rather see a satirical sign, something along the lines of "You are worthless sinner who deserves to burn in Hell if you don't beleive in Jesus. Merry Christmas!".

12-19-2002, 01:27 PM	#15
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Isn't it true that pagans (who celebrate winter solstice) do in fact believe in gods and spirits? scigirl

12-19-2002, 05:24 PM	#17
Living Dead Chipmunk Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 312	So now the pagans get to bitch about ATHEISTS stealing their holidays, too? Geeze, how hard can it possibly be to come up with your own damn holiday?

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