Bree

My beef with the quote is the allegation that all the priests are homosexual.

daemon

Bah, the point of the article seems to me to be whining about how much attention the issue is getting. He never really nails down any particular topic to address; he rambles from point to point and pretends he's made some sort of cogent argument.

The facts remain: the Catholic Church has an institutional tendency to treat itself as being above the law. They have a proven record of protecting priests involved in paedophilic (or ephoebophilic, if you insist) acts of rape. If the US educational system tended to do the same thing, damn straight I'd be torqued at them, as a whole!

IvanK

You have my permission to be torqued at the U.S. educational system.

Scotty

Thanks IvanK, I was a bit oblivios, even after reading the article.
I suppose from other things I have read, the only issue I really have is that they try to downplay what has happened (in the past), instead of striking it head-on.
It is a big institution, and I guess the _expected_ role is supposed to be above reproach, and yet we all know that we are people, and there is nothing different from that church than the school next door. I think they try to uphold that image, instead of trying to fix the problem.
I guess I don't see a difference between this and any other issue (which is why I was oblivious!) like it.

The people with problems need help, what else is there?

-Scott

daemon

Well, for starters, I don't even think the "US education system" is an organization in the sense that the RCC is, and secondly, I've seen no indication of such behavior nor documentation of their response.

Also, for civility's sake, please do not grant me "permission." I find that form of address infuriatingly condescending.

IvanK

You ain't heard nothin' yet.

You're right in that if there were ever discovered to be a massive problem involving transfer of pedophile teachers from public school district to public school district there would be no U.S. education Pope to call in his cardinals for a discussion of what action to take. I expect the Federal Congress would get involved though.

And as the current Catholic Church scandal, including revelations of randy vicars and such over the last 20-30 years, shows, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it don't exist. I suspect from admittedly anecdotal evidence that "problem teachers" have gotten a pretty easy ride until relatively recently. Not to mention Scout leaders, Little League coaches or department store Santa Clauses.

brighid

Why should we not see it as a Church problem? The crime of child molestation crosses all areas of the church and across all nations. It isn’t a problem exclusive to the US or even to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is getting the most press right now, but make no mistake that there is an equal problem within the branches of Protestantism. The Catholic Church has always instituted a policy that protects the priests and harms the children. They believe they are above the law and the act in such a manner. Indeed many laws allow for them to be exempt from the legal obligation of reporting abuse. If the problem was isolated to a few parishes, such as
Instituted patterns of denial and shuffling of priests, perhaps it could be argued that criticism should be confined to individual parishes. However, this pattern of abuse comes from the highest ranking officials within the Catholic Church and it wasn’t until considerable, negative and very public attention was drawn to this matter than any real action has been taken to address this Church wide/universal problem even though the Church has been very aware of the criminal and immoral actions of its priests.

The response from the Bishops, Cardinals and the Vatican has been disappointing, although not surprising. The Church has to 1st admit that there IS a problem, and not half-heartedly while attempting to shift blame to things such as sexual attitudes in America, or as “negligence of the victim.” There is a serious problem that appears to be highly concentrated within religious organizations, most notably the Catholic Church. It will not admit that it’s attitudes towards sex, children and its celibacy requirements play a role in the reason why so many priests molest, in addition to the authority a priest has along with free and unsupervised access to large groups of children. Pedophiles are attracted to the ministry because it is a safe haven to molest. What better front then as a priest, who is generally above reproach, who has the “authority” of God and truth on his side, a Church that will protect them and keep their secret and complete access to trusting children who can be easily scared with their God into keeping silent, fellow priests and laity willing to protect you and put the interests of the Church before the interests of the children and legislation that protects them from being exposed in most cases? If they molest in any other job they have a greater chance of being exposed and being punished. The Church is the perfect breeding ground and safe haven for child molesters.


Brighid

sidewinder

But the RCC is a much different type of organization then the U.S. educational system, at least that's how most RC's might see it. According to the RCC, it's the one true church of the God of the Universe and God protects and governs His true church. Further, it is claimed by RCC that men are called personally by God to be priests. It is claimed that they are given this special vocation by God and are given the grace by God to fulfill this vocation (which basically means that God helps them not to be too horny and need sex.) Yet, it's also claimed that priests are just like everyone else when it comes to having original sin and be sinful in general. So, where is the special protection by God of His priests, especially when one is just about to molest a 10 year old kid? It seems that they need the grace of God more than ever at that point to resist the evil. Hence, the reason it's much worse done by priests is because they are supposed to be men of God. They are trusted and respected by believers to be their spiritual guides. Teachers are just ordinary sinners like you and me, so it's not that surprising when they do things like this.

IvanK

Even granting everything you've said about the shortcomings of the Catholic Church, what would make it a more perfect breeding ground and safe haven for child molesters than public schools, day care centers, Scout troops, or department store Santa setups? If there were something about the Church or its doctrines that could be said to encourage people to molest children, that would be one argument. But saying that some priests -- who I think would agree to be counted as "ordinary sinners" along with their parishioners, however much they might be held to a higher standard or whatever personal call they may feel -- took advantage of their position or the practices of the Church, which not even the Pope claims are perfect, to molest children is no indictment of either the priesthood or the Church per se.

That's not to say either the priesthood or the Church don't have problems that need to be addressed, BTW.

Still interested in the larger question: are there some things that can be considered sinful regardless of the people who do them or the circumstances under which they are done; are we all sinners and do we all want and need forgiveness; or is there some refutation of this or a secular alternative view?

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ]</p>

Captain Pedantic

Well, the point that I feel is most obvious to make is that the guy in the original quote seems to have confused homosexuality with paedophillia, and has assumed that if a gay man is in charge of some children, he will necessarily abuse them.

This is incorrect, as I'm sure you don't need telling. Paedophiles come from all backgrounds and make all kinds of claims, which is how they get away with their crimes. The reason why these priests got away with their crimes for so long has quite literally nothing to do with the fact that society is more tolerant of homosexual activity. They got away with what they did because they were priests, pure and simple. If they did not have that authority that religion and a powerful position in religion gives a person, people would not have been so eager to defend them.