Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Marduk · 12-18-2002, 02:23 PM

I would guess it would be like living in NYC or Berlin or any other very secular place, no different than it is now. Most people don't pay much attention to Religion in their daily lives now. Do you live in the South?

Ojuice5001 · 12-19-2002, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:


That seems to be the way things are going. Few people on earth believe the sun is a god anymore or that sacrifices can bring about good weather and good harvests. We moved from gods for everything to monotheism. We moved from high levels of superstition to knowledge of the workings of the natural world. Industrialized nations tend to be more secular than those that are less advanced. The pattern seems to be there.

Don't get me wrong, I think things would be better without religion. But it's not the silver bullet to cure the ills of humanity. Not by a long shot.

Jamie

Count me as a reactionary. I think supernaturalism is both more true and more beautiful than naturalism, and I have no problem with any of the old beliefs you just named. But the world is moving toward naturalism, and that is not a reason to embrace naturalism; after all, 50,000 years ago, humanity was moving away from naturalism as it gained experience. Because of this, it is quite fitting that my patron goddess is the Roman goddess of the past. I love the past--monkeys, primitive man, the Roman Empire, my own childhood, the twentieth century--if Postverta and I had our way, we would make the world an unending repetition of our favorite parts of the past and present.

Wyz_sub10 · 12-19-2002, 09:04 AM

Quote:

This is a sort of treaty where humans and gods agree to advance each other's interests.

Do the gods sign their names with a gigantic cosmic pen?

Quote:

But without theology, humans would have as little awareness of the gods as a warm-blooded animal.

You are assuming the gods exist, and that the proposed world would simply be ignorant of the existing gods. This assumption changes the meaning quite a bit because every subsequent consideration involves "missing" something.

Quote:

That is why atheism must be prevented from gaining supremacy among the worldviews.

Everything you said here assumes gods exist. Again, if you do this from the beginning the subsequent line of reasoning will be very different.

If you want to take this approach, you needed speak of "knowing" the gods. Rather, you could simply say that if people didn't acknolwedge the gods, they would not receive their favours.

But that isn't at the heart of the OP.

[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Wyz_sub10 ]

Wyz_sub10 · 12-19-2002, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JusticeMachine:
Do you think being free of the belief in supernatural causes for things is the natural social evolution of society?

Yes.

We continually seek tangible answers to questions - proof, evidence, etc.

When we find those answers, we stop invoking supernatural causes. (i.e. illnesses, lightning, movement of the 'heavens', etc.)

That isn't to say that supernatural attribution doesn't exist in society, just that it is not as prevelant in explaining most phenomena.

JusticeMachine · 12-19-2002, 09:13 AM

So it seems the two view are:

1. Society is evolving away from belief in the super natural, and we should just let nature take its course. (Don't push the issue - passive)

2. Whether or not society is evolving that directing is irrelevant, that is the correct direction society need to move and we need to help move it that way. (Push the issue - agressive).

Jamie_L · 12-19-2002, 09:51 AM

JM:

I'd say my views are 1 + 2 (3?)

Society is moving away from the supernatural. That is the direction it should move it. A little push here, a little go-with-the-flow there, and voila!

It should only take a few thousand more years.

Jamie

Corona688 · 12-19-2002, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001:
Theology is the knowledge of the gods and how they relate to humanity and the world. So without theology, humans would have no awareness of the gods. Right now it is possible, in principle, to set up a state of pax deorum--peace with the gods. This is a sort of treaty where humans and gods agree to advance each other's interests. But without theology, humans would have as little awareness of the gods as a warm-blooded animal. Then the gods would not treat humans as partners in a contract; they would treat humans the way humans and gods alike treat warm-blooded animals. In other words, instead of using humans as they have agreed to be used, they would use humans however best served their ends, just as humans use warm-blooded animals however best serves their ends. The gods wouldn't be cruel to humans, just as humans aren't cruel to warm-blooded animals, but the relationship of god and human would be an I-It relationship.

Warm-blooded animals don't know how to make contracts with humans or gods, and so they don't. Now the same thing would happen if humans didn't know how to make a contract with the gods. That is why atheism must be prevented from gaining supremacy among the worldviews.

Quote:

Cheesy Star Control II quote:
You may be surprised to learn that we are deeply spiritual beings, Captain.
We worship our god with great enthusiasm.
You want details? Why certainly.
We Druuge are especially fortunate souls.
Most aliens we have encountered have, at best, a tenuous relationship with their gods
but we Druuge have an iron-clad contract!
Our document reads as follows:
Whereas the Druuge (hereinafter known as `the Worshipers')
wish to establish a long-term relationship with an omnipotent and all-knowing deific entity
(hereinafter known as `God' or `god')
which shall mutually benefit both parties, the parties agree to abide by the following terms and commitments
for the rest of eternity.
The Worshipers hereby promise to perform faithfully and to the best of their ability
the following
1. Worshipers shall make regular and sincere obeisance to God, including but not limited to
prayer, sacrifice, and the building of large structures.
2. Worshipers shall make every attempt to convert non-believers (hereinafter known as `Them')
making sure to obtain signed documents from same attesting to said conversion.
3. Worshipers shall not enter into an agreement with another deity, without written permission from God.
In consideration of the above correctly performed obeisance, God shall provide:
1. Continued existance with little or no modification to the perceived reality of the Worshipers.
2. No fewer than 3 miracles (Force Majeure), whose exact nature and timing
shall be left to God's sole discretion.
3. Worshipers shall enjoy some form of life after death
which shall remain a complete and total mystery to the Worshipers until such time as they die.
We, the undersigned, hereby swear to fulfill our obligations as defined above.
Signed, The Druuge.
(God, being omni-present and all-knowing is considered to have signed this document, by default.)

CALDONIA · 12-19-2002, 03:53 PM

If you believe at all in evolution, you know that society cannot be "pushed" toward anything in the long term, things just take care of themselves. Of all the millions and millions of species that once existed on earth, would their faith in a deity have saved them were they capable of some belief? Mankind's term of existence is a sliver compared to the time of existence of life on the planet. Maybe another Ice Age will wipe us out or perhaps the trouble with the ozone layer will never be resolved. I think that theism is wasteful in this context, and I think that atheism at the least conserves time and energy that makes possiblethe discovery of cures or antidotes to problems that are not solved by prayers, wishful thinking, Christian/pagan rituals.

JusticeMachine · 12-20-2002, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CALDONIA:
If you believe at all in evolution, you know that society cannot be "pushed" toward anything in the long term, things just take care of themselves. Of all the millions and millions of species that once existed on earth, would their faith in a deity have saved them were they capable of some belief? Mankind's term of existence is a sliver compared to the time of existence of life on the planet. Maybe another Ice Age will wipe us out or perhaps the trouble with the ozone layer will never be resolved. I think that theism is wasteful in this context, and I think that atheism at the least conserves time and energy that makes possiblethe discovery of cures or antidotes to problems that are not solved by prayers, wishful thinking, Christian/pagan rituals.

I would agree, under that context, but the end is unavoidable. Whether under the context of religion or science. Our existance here is finite. So the arguement is what do we do with the time given to us? Religion, like it or not, gives perceived external purpose.

I am not a expert, but it seem perceived external purpose, shoot close to the bullseye of happiness than subjective/selfish purpose. Even if the perceived external purpose is false.

Shake · 12-20-2002, 09:50 AM

*closes eyes for visualization*

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! That's nicer!

Quote:

That is why atheism must be prevented from gaining supremacy among the worldviews.

Ho boy! How many times do we have to keep reminding folks that atheism is not a worldview?

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12-18-2002, 02:23 PM	#11
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	I would guess it would be like living in NYC or Berlin or any other very secular place, no different than it is now. Most people don't pay much attention to Religion in their daily lives now. Do you live in the South?

12-19-2002, 09:13 AM	#15
JusticeMachine Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 403	So it seems the two view are: 1. Society is evolving away from belief in the super natural, and we should just let nature take its course. (Don't push the issue - passive) 2. Whether or not society is evolving that directing is irrelevant, that is the correct direction society need to move and we need to help move it that way. (Push the issue - agressive).

12-19-2002, 09:51 AM	#16
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	JM: I'd say my views are 1 + 2 (3?) Society is moving away from the supernatural. That is the direction it should move it. A little push here, a little go-with-the-flow there, and voila! It should only take a few thousand more years. Jamie

12-19-2002, 03:53 PM	#18
CALDONIA Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunnyvale,CA Posts: 371	If you believe at all in evolution, you know that society cannot be "pushed" toward anything in the long term, things just take care of themselves. Of all the millions and millions of species that once existed on earth, would their faith in a deity have saved them were they capable of some belief? Mankind's term of existence is a sliver compared to the time of existence of life on the planet. Maybe another Ice Age will wipe us out or perhaps the trouble with the ozone layer will never be resolved. I think that theism is wasteful in this context, and I think that atheism at the least conserves time and energy that makes possiblethe discovery of cures or antidotes to problems that are not solved by prayers, wishful thinking, Christian/pagan rituals.

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