seebs

I would say "technically, in the eyes of the law". Not "really". I think that some people are really married, but the law doesn't recognize it for whatever reason.

Ugh, I see your point.

If you were theists, you could just say "we're married in God's eyes", or something similar, and most people would understand.

I agree with all of this - it's just that, if I have to pick one of two things to be "real", and one is the actual committed relationship, and the other is the legal construct, I'm gonna pick the relationship.

The legal construct is an attempt to describe a thing which exists. If there hadn't been marriages before we had any laws about them, we would never have invented those laws.

So, for instance, I'd have said the above with "... but if one is legally married and another is not, there is a valid legal difference." "Legally married" is an important construct, but wholly separate from what makes marriages important to *people*.

cheetah

I really, really agree with you. Often I am torn between being proud and adamant about not being married, because I disagree with how the government doles out the benefits and penalties of marriage and how society "specially annoints" those relationships that are registered with the state. But, really, I am just glad the distinction continues to be eroded, as the big deal really is the quality of the relationship, not whether or not they had a big party with a white dress and rings. In fact, I often visit this website: http://www.unmarried.org/ which is a great website with information about and support for unmarried people, whether by choice or by force. They founders wrote a book which I read which talks about some of the same things and points out the importance of the relationship, not the paper. Unfortunately, so many conservatives in our country particularly are very against any relationship that is not registered with the state, as it somehow connotes evil to them. Like, you're only a real family if you've registered your love. I think most Christians are not like you. for instance, GWBush thinks only families that are officially married should have many benefits and has put measures in place to encourage people to get married, as if that would make a qualitative difference in their relationship. My partner's parents, also, are very Christian and despite the fact that we have been together for 7 years, we still have to sleep in separate rooms when we come to visit...because we have not registered with the government. how Christians started equated "real Marrige in the eyes of god" with the government, I am not quite sure (although I do know that it was the 1500s when the church took over marriage as their bailiwick, before that it was non-governmental AND non-religious). Anyway, that's my gripe! You may enjoy visiting that site. let me know!

seebs

The history is much more complicated; as I understand it, the current state arose partially out of problems where people would say they were married, then later say "oh, we never *really* exchanged vows". So, the church started demanding witnesses before *recognizing* a marriage.

I think there's been civil weddings of one sort or another for a long time, although the degree of precision of law about it is a sort of new thing - and IMHO, a bad thing.

I don't think people should be pressured to "get married", because I don't think the result is typically a "marriage" in any meaningful sense.

The Other Michael

While reading the last few posts it occurred to me that not only do I not consider myself married (because I'm not), I don't feel married.

The curious thing about that is I'm not quite sure what I think "married" would feel like - just that I don't feel that way.

cheers,
Michael

seebs

Interesting! I have known a few people who have, to greater or lesser extents, felt that way. In most cases, it's seemed to come out of a vague idea that feeling "married" is more like "being in love".

I don't always "feel" married, but it seems to me that sticking with it anyway is the Right Thing To Do.

I've seen too many people throw away a good relationship once the shiny wore off.

cheetah

I don't feel married because I don't feel old, boring and stodgy. Not that I would IF I were married, but it's simply a product of my environment. All the married people around me act old (even if they are not) and become more conservative and tend to start turning friends down when offers to go out and do something fun arise. I realize my environment is not a representative sample, but it is my perception. One reason I like not being married is I have all the benefits of the companionship while still feeling like we are active and young. We still get out there and hike, go to bars, go white water rafting and aren't tied down by children. No married couples that I know are as free-spirited.

seebs

Are you my wife or something? She had exactly the same concern for a long time... it did take some doing to throw off the social norms and say "fuck it, we will do whatever we feel like".

I think there is some issue with conflating social norms with marriage itself.

Pyrrho

How do you know you don't "feel married" if you have no idea of what it would be like to "feel married"?

I am married, and have been for over 10 years. I don't feel different because of being married; I would love my wife the same if we were not married. For us, it was wanting the legal implications of being married. It also was pleasing to our families, but that was not the reason why we got married.

My wife likes the fact that I am absolutely committed to her, and a marriage is a way of expressing that commitment. Of course, it is not the only way to express such a commitment, nor does it guarantee that one is committed.

The Other Michael

Beats me - feelings are just funny that way sometimes I guess. I don't feel like Jiminy Cricket either, but since I've never been an anthropomorphized insect I guess I can't say with any certainty that I don't feel like one.

I am starting to feel old at times (nearing 50), I'd like to think I'm not usually boring (though I probably have my moments) and I prefer to characterize myself as "comfortable doing the things that I know that I like" rather than stodgy.

So maybe if I can work on achieving the rest of the warning signs of marriage I'll be able to determine just how it should feel.

cheers,
Michael

seebs

Seems to me you've determined that you don't feel like someone in a failing marriage.

I know what you mean, though. It's so weird comparing your own experience of life to the inevitably paler and less interesting experiences of an older generation.

In a lot of ways, if I look at what people think of when they talk about marriage, I reject it... I just prefer to keep the word and reject the baggage.