Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pariah · 06-12-2003, 02:37 PM

yes...my mother and her friends seem to think everything is the result of god...

"well, god sure fixed that!!!"

"well, god works in mysterious ways..."

i swear to god when im around her i hear both of those at LEAST once an hour.

Opera Nut · 06-12-2003, 04:39 PM

Faust, I've wondered what that "personal relationship with Jesus" means myself.

I think it's obsessive-compulsive behavior that keeps people from thinking about their REAL problems and taking active steps to fix them. THey can just dump it in God's lap and say what ever happens is God's will. Now how they have a clue it's god's will, I do not know. (Read HEALING THE SHAME THAT BINDS YOU, by John Bradshaw, Ph.D. -- ex priest)

So if everything that happens is God's Will, then.....

My sister's horrible death from brain cancer at age 42 was God's will; She was a beautiful vibrant woman and in 14 months she was dead with the side of her head caved in from all the operations she had;

My little brother's death from AIDS at age 31 was God's will (he was the kid who lived down the street who we 'adopted' informally as our little brother);

My court reporter friend who worked herself to death by respiratory failure at age 40 was God's will;

My ex husband waging war on me and my parents in our divorce, and thereby making my parents liquidate our daughter's college fund to pay lawyers in their defense, was god's will. My kid has no college fund due to her father's greed and ego;

My sister's last husband stealing my inheritance from her and forging additions to her will so I got nothing was God's will;

My mother's pain, blindness, heart disease, ALzheimer's and malnutrition in the last years of her life were God's will;

My dad's death from cancer, needing to have a quadruple bypass which he had 20 years earlier, and a gallbladder removal, were all God's will.

The lawyers who sued me without cause, making my lifemiserable, were god's will;

The judges who told the other judges I was incompetent, for no reason than plain meanness, were God's will;

The lawyers in the damn legislature, who destroyed my job through their legislation, were doing God's will;

The lawyers and judges who screamed at me at work for no reason were doing God's will, in order to give me a nervous breakdown;.

My lack of a decent steady job for the last 7 years is God's will;

My total burn out with society is God's will;

My suicide attempt due to good Christians telling me what kind of worthless person I am, was God's will;

The fact that my boyfriend had to move in with me after he finished video school, or he would have had to sleep in his car, was god's will; he had been a chemical engineer and has two physics degrees, so it's not like he's lazy or unskilled -- that lack of work for him is God's will;

The first husband who screwed around with 7 of my girlfriends, because he was a horny little teenager was God's will;

The second husband who was busy trying to suck money from me and get my father's law license, when he was in his 80s, was GOd's will;

The second husband who told my friend that he had to "destroy me or destroy our child" was god's will;

My obesity, thyroid trouble, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, fibroids, allergies, tendency towards pneumonia and sinus infections is God's will;

I could go on but you get the point. The world is a random and scary place, and I still think it's a random and scary place.

:banghead:

captainpabst · 06-12-2003, 05:16 PM

(((Opera Nut))) I'd kick Jesus' ass for you if I knew where he was.

AspenMama · 06-12-2003, 07:01 PM

Opera Nut-- wow-- I don't know what to say. Life has tossed you some punches!

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
It has nothing to do with what happens after I die--afterall, I don't know what will happen anyway. It has to do with how I live my life today--it makes me think about my actions and how they affect other people, both directly and indirectly.

This is something I have always had difficulty understanding from the theist viewpoint. If you didn't have a god-belief, do you think you would not have such a consideration about how your actions affect others?

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
I don't ask myself the questions in your post, but I ask other things that help me attune my life to what I feel God wants.

Another thing here I find strange-- everyone can decide for themselves what they think their god wants. As atheists, we put the onus of knowing what is right on ourselves utilizing reason, social mores and the like...and I think essentialy, you theists do the same, if you are well adjusted and happy, whether or not you attribute it to mythological being in the end or not.

Maverick · 06-13-2003, 06:32 AM

I am going to move this thread to General Religious Discussions so that theists can more freely answer your question.

For all those who wish to respond please keep in mind that this was started in SL&S, so try to exercise a bit of restraint.

Maverick
SL&S Moderator

wildernesse · 06-13-2003, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AspenMama

This is something I have always had difficulty understanding from the theist viewpoint. If you didn't have a god-belief, do you think you would not have such a consideration about how your actions affect others?

I might have those same considerations, but they would rise from a different source. At this point in time, my considerations are based on what I believe are inspired rules.

--tibac

Opera Nut · 06-13-2003, 09:07 AM

Thanks Pabst and Aspen Mama! I'm just listing SOME of the bad shit that's happened to me in the past 15 years or so. I've just tried to mind my own business and do the best I can like everybody else.

And I know there are people out there who have had worse things happen, like losing a small child to cancer or accident, or their whole familly was killed in a car wreck, or something, but I put down all that shit just as an example. Most families have had everybody die of cancer and heart disease, I think, statistically speaking. I could have added some more stuff, and more friends' deaths, etc, but I got tired of typing and didn't want to write the Great American Non-Fiction Book.

I feel that my bad shit is probably not much worse than lots of other peoples' troubles. And I'm supposed to have resources -- to be bright, resourceful, and able-to problem solve! Ha ha!

And then some people wonder why everyone in the US is depressed and going to a shrink, because their maniacal bosses make them work harder than is humanly possible! (See the thread about obesity and the causes thereof...I've had a flaming row with Skeptictank--he didn't understand most of my points)

AspenMama · 06-13-2003, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
I might have those same considerations, but they would rise from a different source. At this point in time, my considerations are based on what I believe are inspired rules.

From what I know of you, I believe that you would have those same considerations for others, god-belief or not! However, I have often had a different response from theists on that issue-- I have heard they believe they couldn't play nice without "divine inspiration". As you've mentioned that you might be able to have compassion for others without a god-belief, I'm curious if you think people in general can have that same compassion without a god-belief?

seebs · 06-13-2003, 09:55 AM

I think people in general can be compassionate without a God-belief. Occasionally, the belief affects questions where one might be tempted to play the "no one will ever know" card, although it turns out that, on reflection, it doesn't matter; you'll always know, after all.

The tricky part here is distinguishing between ways in which the belief in and of itself affects me, and ways in which the thing-believed-in affects me. You can just handwave and say "oh, it's just the belief", but I'm not much more convinced by that than I am by people who have seen the Matrix too often and think that I'm only affected by gravity because I believe in it.

Anyway, for me, yeah, God is pretty much a regular part of my daily life; the Person at whom I direct comments on the world, etcetera.

emotional · 06-13-2003, 01:21 PM

For me, the God-question doesn't occupy a part in practical life, because I see this life, this natural universe, as the Kingdom of Naturalism, where everything operates by rigorous natural law (direct cause and effect). I don't believe prayer works, then. The natural universe is pretty atheistic in its management, and that's what makes atheism possible at all. I believe the Veil is lifted upon entrance to the Astral Planes, the Afterlife, where the presence of God is clear to all. I think of God as the One to look forward to in the afterlife.

As for this life, the only requirement is kindly relations with other human beings - pretty much what atheists practice. One's level in Heaven (or Hell) is not dependent upon theological beliefs, but upon one's actions towards others. Since God is self-sufficient, there is nothing one can do in order to please Him and gain reward from Him. Therefore the way to heaven is not by sycophantic praise to God, or acts of worship of Him, or faith in Him (or a son of His), but by kindliness towards others.

I believe in God and the afterlife because it comforts me to believe that there is a continuation to life after bodily death.

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06-12-2003, 02:37 PM	#11
pariah Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: الرياض Posts: 6,456	yes...my mother and her friends seem to think everything is the result of god... "well, god sure fixed that!!!" "well, god works in mysterious ways..." i swear to god when im around her i hear both of those at LEAST once an hour.

06-12-2003, 04:39 PM	#12
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Faust, I've wondered what that "personal relationship with Jesus" means myself. I think it's obsessive-compulsive behavior that keeps people from thinking about their REAL problems and taking active steps to fix them. THey can just dump it in God's lap and say what ever happens is God's will. Now how they have a clue it's god's will, I do not know. (Read HEALING THE SHAME THAT BINDS YOU, by John Bradshaw, Ph.D. -- ex priest) So if everything that happens is God's Will, then..... My sister's horrible death from brain cancer at age 42 was God's will; She was a beautiful vibrant woman and in 14 months she was dead with the side of her head caved in from all the operations she had; My little brother's death from AIDS at age 31 was God's will (he was the kid who lived down the street who we 'adopted' informally as our little brother); My court reporter friend who worked herself to death by respiratory failure at age 40 was God's will; My ex husband waging war on me and my parents in our divorce, and thereby making my parents liquidate our daughter's college fund to pay lawyers in their defense, was god's will. My kid has no college fund due to her father's greed and ego; My sister's last husband stealing my inheritance from her and forging additions to her will so I got nothing was God's will; My mother's pain, blindness, heart disease, ALzheimer's and malnutrition in the last years of her life were God's will; My dad's death from cancer, needing to have a quadruple bypass which he had 20 years earlier, and a gallbladder removal, were all God's will. The lawyers who sued me without cause, making my lifemiserable, were god's will; The judges who told the other judges I was incompetent, for no reason than plain meanness, were God's will; The lawyers in the damn legislature, who destroyed my job through their legislation, were doing God's will; The lawyers and judges who screamed at me at work for no reason were doing God's will, in order to give me a nervous breakdown;. My lack of a decent steady job for the last 7 years is God's will; My total burn out with society is God's will; My suicide attempt due to good Christians telling me what kind of worthless person I am, was God's will; The fact that my boyfriend had to move in with me after he finished video school, or he would have had to sleep in his car, was god's will; he had been a chemical engineer and has two physics degrees, so it's not like he's lazy or unskilled -- that lack of work for him is God's will; The first husband who screwed around with 7 of my girlfriends, because he was a horny little teenager was God's will; The second husband who was busy trying to suck money from me and get my father's law license, when he was in his 80s, was GOd's will; The second husband who told my friend that he had to "destroy me or destroy our child" was god's will; My obesity, thyroid trouble, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, fibroids, allergies, tendency towards pneumonia and sinus infections is God's will; I could go on but you get the point. The world is a random and scary place, and I still think it's a random and scary place. :banghead:

06-12-2003, 05:16 PM	#13
captainpabst Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 200	(((Opera Nut))) I'd kick Jesus' ass for you if I knew where he was.

06-13-2003, 06:32 AM	#15
Maverick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 6,367	I am going to move this thread to General Religious Discussions so that theists can more freely answer your question. For all those who wish to respond please keep in mind that this was started in SL&S, so try to exercise a bit of restraint. Maverick SL&S Moderator

06-13-2003, 09:07 AM	#17
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Thanks Pabst and Aspen Mama! I'm just listing SOME of the bad shit that's happened to me in the past 15 years or so. I've just tried to mind my own business and do the best I can like everybody else. And I know there are people out there who have had worse things happen, like losing a small child to cancer or accident, or their whole familly was killed in a car wreck, or something, but I put down all that shit just as an example. Most families have had everybody die of cancer and heart disease, I think, statistically speaking. I could have added some more stuff, and more friends' deaths, etc, but I got tired of typing and didn't want to write the Great American Non-Fiction Book. I feel that my bad shit is probably not much worse than lots of other peoples' troubles. And I'm supposed to have resources -- to be bright, resourceful, and able-to problem solve! Ha ha! And then some people wonder why everyone in the US is depressed and going to a shrink, because their maniacal bosses make them work harder than is humanly possible! (See the thread about obesity and the causes thereof...I've had a flaming row with Skeptictank--he didn't understand most of my points)

06-13-2003, 09:55 AM	#19
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	I think people in general can be compassionate without a God-belief. Occasionally, the belief affects questions where one might be tempted to play the "no one will ever know" card, although it turns out that, on reflection, it doesn't matter; you'll always know, after all. The tricky part here is distinguishing between ways in which the belief in and of itself affects me, and ways in which the thing-believed-in affects me. You can just handwave and say "oh, it's just the belief", but I'm not much more convinced by that than I am by people who have seen the Matrix too often and think that I'm only affected by gravity because I believe in it. Anyway, for me, yeah, God is pretty much a regular part of my daily life; the Person at whom I direct comments on the world, etcetera.

06-13-2003, 01:21 PM	#20
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	For me, the God-question doesn't occupy a part in practical life, because I see this life, this natural universe, as the Kingdom of Naturalism, where everything operates by rigorous natural law (direct cause and effect). I don't believe prayer works, then. The natural universe is pretty atheistic in its management, and that's what makes atheism possible at all. I believe the Veil is lifted upon entrance to the Astral Planes, the Afterlife, where the presence of God is clear to all. I think of God as the One to look forward to in the afterlife. As for this life, the only requirement is kindly relations with other human beings - pretty much what atheists practice. One's level in Heaven (or Hell) is not dependent upon theological beliefs, but upon one's actions towards others. Since God is self-sufficient, there is nothing one can do in order to please Him and gain reward from Him. Therefore the way to heaven is not by sycophantic praise to God, or acts of worship of Him, or faith in Him (or a son of His), but by kindliness towards others. I believe in God and the afterlife because it comforts me to believe that there is a continuation to life after bodily death.

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