99Percent

HRG: non-theists - as everyone - can only have 99% confidence in the reality of the external world...

Hey! LOL

Not Prince Hamlet

Well, I'd argue that you can asymptotically approach 100% certainty, but never quite reach it. That's not the same thing as 99%, though.

Jeff

Daydreamer

Funny anecdote:

The 19th century poet who coined "God works in mysterious ways", a man by the name of William Foyer I believe, lived to be 70 something. During said 70 years, he is recorded to have attempted suicide at a bare minimum of 6 times, and spent more than 1/2, probably 2/3, his life in near suicidal depression.

Why? Because he had trouble with the concepts of "Salvation/Damnation" and the origin of evil. Because he couldn't accept his own phrase, that "God works in mysterious ways". Poor bastard.

Poetic irony indeed.

NON-theist

I, like a lot of the other atheists here, have a serious problem with this assertion. You've basically said:

1. If atheists can assume (safely) that "reality exists" (whatever that means) and nature is predictable, then they can argue that God does not exist.
2. Atheists can assume (safely) that "reality exists" and nature is predictable if and only if God exists.
3. Atheists can argue that God does not exist, if and only if God exists.

You think you've boxed atheists in; you think that you've caught us, forced us to recognize our assumption that God exists. But alas you haven't. You've actually made a very unfair, a priori assumption in #2 that necessitates the paradox in #3. Your hard-line “if and only if” statement that was implied in the preceding quote from your email is way too restrictive to be considered a valid argument. There is actually a much broader prerequisite than God’s existence (i.e. that reality actually exists and nature is actually predictable). You have to admit that a safe assumption can be most generally made if that assumption is ACTUALLY true and not if some other item is true (i.e., that God exists) that would have an effect on that former item To illustrate this, #2 should more appropriately be:

2*. Atheists can assume (safely) that "reality exists" and nature is predictable if and only if reality ACTUALLY exists and nature is ACTUALLY predictable.

This implies the conclusion in #3 is:

3*. Atheists can argue that God does not exist if and only if reality ACTUALLY exists and nature is ACTUALLY predictable.

As this shows, you have not disproven atheism at all. In order to get us now, you must insert another clause:

4*. Reality ACTUALLY exists and nature is ACTUALLY predictable if and only if God exists.

And you must provide some proof that this statement is true before you can appropriately insert it. Atheists would reject this statement outright because it purposefully negates atheism. That is, making a statement like this would require an a priori belief, a leap of faith (or at least some proof or evidence beyond what you have so poorly provided), that would reject the idea that the universe could exist and that nature could be predictable by any other cause besides God. It seems that your argument runs right back into your original question - Is the NON-existence of God a logical possibility? The only reasonable answer is a resounding YES!!! Your circular reasoning haunts you. You have not yet disproven atheism. Great try - your logic was tricky, but ultimately flawed.

99Percent

NON-theist: Great post.

It is clear theists can't accept reality for what is: clear, logical and consistent. For some reason, reality to them must have a reason, an essence beyond what it is obvious, like they can't seem to grasp at it.

Existence just is. A=A.

Theists want to make A<>A so that they can then make the illogical logical, such as life after death, heaven, hell, miracles and other nonsense.

I think it is much more refreshing to know that reality is logically consistent, it allows you to live with much more certainty and confidence.

NON-theist

I thought of something funny, that basically shows how I can twist an argument such that theism becomes absurd (just like you can twist it to make atheism look absurd).

"Theists cannot argue against the eternality and rationality of the Universe and its laws without assuming knowledge of things which can only be true if the universe is rational and eternal, e.g., the 'reality of existence' and the predictability of nature."

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: NON-theist ]</p>