xian

oh no. Don't start "interpreting" ingersoll. His words say precisely what they say. They are not obscured...they are not analogous. They are crystal clear...precise...and of easy interpretation. In fact, Ingersoll was an excellent orator. He did not hide meanings in his speeches...he did not conceal his intentions in symbolic stories or parables....he clearly spoke. Precise. Clean.

His convictions of atheism was rested upon causation.

The irony is that those are the full, unbridled convictions of THEISM! lol. I just find it so unbelievably ironic that 100 years later theists argue precisely what he argued.

yes, I think he was duped!

Eudaimonist

QM has done nothing to undermine causation or naturalism. What it did overturn was classical "billiard ball" determinism.

Your argument falls flat.

xian

hmmm...so you are saying that QM does not negate causation? and that there is indeed causes for all events (even if not classical causes)?

keyser_soze

Talk about irony....For bonus points, can you tell me why that is perhaps the most ironic thing a theist could possibly say.

I think he was not the only one. Well, actually he wasn't. You really are putting your own spin on his words. But I suspect you cannot even concieve of the difference in the way he saw things, and the way that you do. :banghead:

pz

Oh, dear. This is pathetic.

I'm not the one attempting to impose some narrow interpretation on the guy's words. You have read this long essay by Ingersoll, in which he discusses many reasons (citing various philosophers, Darwin and Huxley, the inconsistency and inadequacy of the theological view, the problem of evil, etc.) for his agnosticism and somehow come away with the idea that all of his convictions "rested upon causation". That somehow, because modern physicists have new ideas that he did not know about, all of his arguments have evaporated. Even more ludicrously, you think that that essay represents the way modern theists think.

Is this some kind of joke?

Are you so desperate for some kind of intellectual vindication for your superstitions that you have to willfully misinterpret a freethought essay, or are you simply functionally illiterate?

keyser_soze

That would seem to be the most obvious answer, judging from other responses.

Starboy

I suspect that xian is trying to turn the tables on us atheists so to speak. He is looking for atheist "sacred writings" and trying to interpret them in a way that would indicate that we atheists have been duped. Xian doesn't get atheism. We have no "sacred writings". As interesting as the writings of Ingersoll are, atheists make up their own minds. We are not led like sheep by some common doctrine. When we become atheists and stay atheists it is because there are no "sacred texts" that we find convincing. If xian could succeed in showing that Ingersoll became an atheist for the wrong reasons it will have no effect on other atheists. I will repeat this again for the benefit of Xian, we are atheists because we find religion unconvincing, not because we find any so called atheist doctrine convincing. Make a note of this xian. If you learn anything during your visits to this site learn this one thing!


Starboy

keyser_soze

AAAAMMMMMEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!

xian

lets see, if I'm not mistaken, it is www.infidels.org that pays homage to Ingersoll at each of his birthdays. Kind of strange that someone would say "happy birthday" to the deteriorated corpse of a nonexistant entity. IF that doesn't fit the definition of "sacred" i don't know what does. Maybe not in a religous sense, but certainly it has some sacredity to it.

Q: Got atheism?

A: no.

I didn't think atheism was something to "get" as if it is a quantiable set of mandates.

its just kind of ironic that Ingersoll became an atheist for reasons that today's atheists would reject as a form "xianism". Ingersoll's conviction for being an atheist is a great theistic quote that any pastor could use in a sermon.

its ironic, that is all i am saying.

keyser_soze

We also created "steak and blowjob day". Doesn't mean we worship it. I would pay homage to plutarch for the genius he was, doesn't mean I've deified him. And you're right atheism isn't something you "get". It's called standing up without crutches. Kind of like a healing thing. One moment you're deluded, the next you can see. It's a wonderful feeling.

You need to realize that we're like ex-smokers. We're the worst, simply because we are recovered theists for the most part. No one is worse on smokers, than an ex smoker, because they have been there. Well, smell the coffee, because a lot of us have been there. And we see where you're headed. And soon, you'll understand exactly what I mean.