Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Godless Dave · 07-16-2003, 10:34 AM

I am constantly amazed at how many women there are on II who have thoughtfully decided they do not want to have children.

Now, why the hell do I never meet any women like that in real life?!?

Immaculate Deception · 07-16-2003, 11:48 AM

SHIT, I just took the time to write up individual responses to everybody, and I just lost ALL of it. AHHHH!! screw it.

Briefly,

Yes, I'd adopt in a second if I were to change my mind. In fact, I feel more socially obligated to adopt than to have my DNA continue.

As far as freethinker parents are concerned, it's just yet another reason for me to NOT have one. I can't imagine the work that it takes to keep a kid from being indoctrinated, to teach them how to critically think about everything, even about the things that I'd say to them myself. And the interfering relatives' advice? No WAY!!!

Thanks to Jewel for the Link on the vasectomy. I'm definitely going to bring up the topic with my husband again. I really don't want to get a tubal, but if I have to, I'll "shop around."

You're all terrific. If any of you childfree women ever want to vent or to talk, PM me w/o hesitation. All of my close gf's have children now, and it's difficult sometimes, to be so different in our lifestyles.

Godless Dave, should I happen to find any single, godless, childfree women, I'll send them up your way.

ID

The Other Michael · 07-16-2003, 12:18 PM

A vasectomy will leave a guy with 2-3 days of discomfort (brusing/swelling in the scrotum you can deal with by ice packs and OTC analgesics). I had mine on a Friday afternoon, and even though there were some minor difficulties (they kept losing the loose end of the vas and I had to get a refill on the local anesthetic so it took longer than usual, with more poking around) I had no difficulty going to work on Monday. I've had fillings that were more uncomfortable than the surgery.

They did want you to sign up, and then reaffirm the decision 2-4 weeks later, and they will certainly try their best to discourage the operation (which they should probably do for a lot of elective surgery), but you've just got to tell them your mind is made up.

My friend who had his vasectomy and then rode his motorcycle home regretted chosing that mode of transportation.

cheers,
Michael

The Other Michael · 07-16-2003, 12:21 PM

Here, here and here are three related threads.

Some of those are from the old board so the links won't work right, but you can copy/paste them into your browser and get to them that way.

cheers,
Michael

catmar · 07-16-2003, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Loki
Hear hear RevDahlia!!!

I'd like to concur, being an adoptee myself. Everytime I hear about some woman having a litter of babies because of the fertility drugs they took so they could have "their own" f---ing child, it makes me nauseous, because after all, a child's more special if it has half of your genes, cancer causing genes included.

</rant>

Being an adoptee (with fertility problems as well), I agree. My husband and I have already decided we will only go so far with fertility treatments (no more complicated than IUI) - anymore would be too much. We plan on adopting if that doesn't work out (something I wanted to do anyhow which, thankfully, he agrees with).

catmar · 07-16-2003, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by King Rat
I remember getting into it with my mother about this very issue (no pun). I mentioned that I'm nearly blind, have massive allergies, had a genetically transmitted childhood disease, and deviated septum. But, gosh wouldn't it be great to pass on my stellar genes?

Her reply? "But you're so smart..."

Yep, smart enough to enact my own personal eugenics program.

Oh yeah, the other one that kills me is my siblings are always telling me; "You'd make a great dad."

They must have conveniently forgotten when at a family reunion one of their 'little bundles of joy' kept throwing peas at me across the table. I leaned over grabbed the little accident and through gritted teeth said "If you do that one more time, I'm gonna twist your tiny head off and kick it over the fence."

I'd make a horrible dad and most likely end up in prison.

You have me laughing so hard, my neighbors here at work are probably wondering what's going on. I love kids and want 1 or 2 of my one, but I would be so tempted to say something like that if someone else's little darling angel pulled that with me, too.

trillian · 07-16-2003, 12:45 PM

Something to think about....
It has just occurred to me that ID's pressure to have children could be compared to an atheists pressure to be at least "agnostic"..."just in case".

I have heard about many people claiming to have found religion after being atheists, but I would put the odds of that happening to me at about impossible to none. I am 100% confident I will not ever change my mind.

It's not a perfect analogy but thinking this way helps put my bias toward people changing their minds to rest. If an atheist thought there was a chance of religion sneaking into their body- wouldn't we all be confident to get sterilized from it knowing for certain that we didn't want it? Or would we be swayed by people who insist that one day we will want a god in our lives?

Douglas Adams illustrates this in an article for AA:

Quote:

AMERICAN ATHEISTS: Mr. Adams, you have been described as a �radical Atheist.� Is this accurate?

DNA: Yes. I think I use the term radical rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as �Atheist,� some people will say, �Don�t you mean �Agnostic�?� I have to reply that I really do mean Atheist. I really do not believe that there is a god - in fact I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one. It�s easier to say that I am a radical Atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it�s an opinion I hold seriously. It�s funny how many people are genuinely surprised to hear a view expressed so strongly. In England we seem to have drifted from vague wishy-washy Anglicanism to vague wishy-washy Agnosticism - both of which I think betoken a desire not to have to think about things too much.

People will then often say �But surely it�s better to remain an Agnostic just in case?� This, to me, suggests such a level of silliness and muddle that I usually edge out of the conversation rather than get sucked into it. (If it turns out that I�ve been wrong all along, and there is in fact a god, and if it further turned out that this kind of legalistic, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back, Clintonian hair-splitting impressed him, then I think I would chose not to worship him anyway.)

EarlFlynn · 07-16-2003, 02:55 PM

My vasectomy consultation is set for August 11th. I hope I won't have too much trouble convincing the doctor to go through with it; I'm an unmarried, child-free, 34 year old. My girlfriend's tubes are already tied, but both of us are so completely determined not to have kids that I'm getting myself sterilized as well.

The only misgiving I have is my parents' feelings. I'm sure as heck not going to tell them that I'm having this operation, because I know they'll be disappointed. Better that they think I'm sterile as an unfortunate happenstance, rather than willfully turning my back on parenthood.

Zora · 07-16-2003, 03:19 PM

I am not childless, because in my era, tubal ligations were NOT done on women with less than two children, or women under 35, and then you had to have signed permission from your husband and undergo counseling to be sure you understood the ramifications of your decision. Meanwhile, the IUD failed. Presto! Motherhood!

I would have chosen to be childless. I do, however, love the offspring regardless.

So when asked why I only had ONE child, I would tell the nosey questioner that the world was already overpopulated, and I felt a moral obligation to do my part to make up for those selfish egotistical assholes who insisted on having more than their share. A real conversation ender! (Note: freethinkers are allotted more than 2)

Loren Pechtel · 07-16-2003, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Immaculate Deception
Ah, the knife...it strikes fear into his poor little heart. I can sympathize with that, except I also feel that a vasectomy is more reasonable-- costs less in both currency and pain (from what I understand) than would a tubal. But I don't want to be pushy, because it's his choice and I want him to feel 100% certain of it.

And I would have been the first patient to fill your coffer!

ID

Yeah--there's something about the thought of a knife down there that is scary way out of proportion to the reality of the situation.

07-16-2003, 03:19 PM	#39
Zora Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Missouri Posts: 571	childless by choice I am not childless, because in my era, tubal ligations were NOT done on women with less than two children, or women under 35, and then you had to have signed permission from your husband and undergo counseling to be sure you understood the ramifications of your decision. Meanwhile, the IUD failed. Presto! Motherhood! I would have chosen to be childless. I do, however, love the offspring regardless. So when asked why I only had ONE child, I would tell the nosey questioner that the world was already overpopulated, and I felt a moral obligation to do my part to make up for those selfish egotistical assholes who insisted on having more than their share. A real conversation ender! (Note: freethinkers are allotted more than 2)

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07-16-2003, 10:34 AM	#31
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	I am constantly amazed at how many women there are on II who have thoughtfully decided they do not want to have children. Now, why the hell do I never meet any women like that in real life?!?

07-16-2003, 11:48 AM	#32
Immaculate Deception Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 104	SHIT, I just took the time to write up individual responses to everybody, and I just lost ALL of it. AHHHH!! screw it. Briefly, Yes, I'd adopt in a second if I were to change my mind. In fact, I feel more socially obligated to adopt than to have my DNA continue. As far as freethinker parents are concerned, it's just yet another reason for me to NOT have one. I can't imagine the work that it takes to keep a kid from being indoctrinated, to teach them how to critically think about everything, even about the things that I'd say to them myself. And the interfering relatives' advice? No WAY!!! Thanks to Jewel for the Link on the vasectomy. I'm definitely going to bring up the topic with my husband again. I really don't want to get a tubal, but if I have to, I'll "shop around." You're all terrific. If any of you childfree women ever want to vent or to talk, PM me w/o hesitation. All of my close gf's have children now, and it's difficult sometimes, to be so different in our lifestyles. Godless Dave, should I happen to find any single, godless, childfree women, I'll send them up your way. ID

07-16-2003, 12:18 PM	#33
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	A vasectomy will leave a guy with 2-3 days of discomfort (brusing/swelling in the scrotum you can deal with by ice packs and OTC analgesics). I had mine on a Friday afternoon, and even though there were some minor difficulties (they kept losing the loose end of the vas and I had to get a refill on the local anesthetic so it took longer than usual, with more poking around) I had no difficulty going to work on Monday. I've had fillings that were more uncomfortable than the surgery. They did want you to sign up, and then reaffirm the decision 2-4 weeks later, and they will certainly try their best to discourage the operation (which they should probably do for a lot of elective surgery), but you've just got to tell them your mind is made up. My friend who had his vasectomy and then rode his motorcycle home regretted chosing that mode of transportation. cheers, Michael

07-16-2003, 12:21 PM	#34
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Here, here and here are three related threads. Some of those are from the old board so the links won't work right, but you can copy/paste them into your browser and get to them that way. cheers, Michael

07-16-2003, 02:55 PM	#38
EarlFlynn Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Edmonton, Alberta Posts: 1,806	My vasectomy consultation is set for August 11th. I hope I won't have too much trouble convincing the doctor to go through with it; I'm an unmarried, child-free, 34 year old. My girlfriend's tubes are already tied, but both of us are so completely determined not to have kids that I'm getting myself sterilized as well. The only misgiving I have is my parents' feelings. I'm sure as heck not going to tell them that I'm having this operation, because I know they'll be disappointed. Better that they think I'm sterile as an unfortunate happenstance, rather than willfully turning my back on parenthood.

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