RufusAtticus

No I don't. Please tell us what "rights" Xians think they have but they really don't. Insinuate all you want, but I want a real argument.

Please support that with actual instances of Christian organizations or denominations claiming such "rights."

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

Starboy

So Rufus, let me get this strait, you are for creationism, prayer, and the Ten Commandments in the public schools? You are for the U.S. Government displaying on money and public buildings religious sentiments? You are for the abolishment of legalized abortion? You are against gay rights? In short you do not oppose any initiative put forth by any Christian group in this country? What kind of an atheist are you? Are you a wolf in sheep’s clothing?

Starboy

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

scigirl

Starboy,

If you think that list of activities is an inclusive list of what Christians do, you need to do one of two things:

1) Spend less time reading this board, and

2) Get out more.

People are people - and both atheists and christians could use a lesson in tolerance. I work in two separate medical clinics and I have interaction with the "common everyday" folk on a regular basis. What am I learning from these experiences (besides the fact that the elderly population is on way way too much medication )? Well, the bottom line is - religion is helpful to some people right now - it provides comfort, community and structure to their lives where they might not otherwise get it. No I don't like the things some churches do. But you know what, I don't like the things a lot of secular medical clinics do either, both in philosophy and in practice. And I don't like a lot of things that the Republicans do. Or the Democrats. Or yes, even the Green Party does some stupid crap at times!

To blame religion as the sole source of our problems, or to advocate that eliminating all aspects of religion or spirituality from human life will have only positive effects, is in my not-so-humble opinion, a grossly naive position to defend.

scigirl

Starboy

Sorry scigirl, IID is the only place I get to vent.

scigirl

Heh that's ok. It's just that . . . well some of us are pretty attached to religious folk, and it's hard to not jump in and defend them at least a little bit....

scigirl

RufusAtticus

Starboy, you wouldn't happen to have any evidence of any Christian organizations claiming to have to "right" to do these things? Just like to folks at AiG, you're high on rhetoric and low on evidence. Specifically, I challenge you to look through the <a href="http://www.umc.org/abouttheumc/policy/" target="_blank">Policies of the United Methodist Church</a> and find evidence of any of these things. Remember, I am not defending the lunatic fringe of Christianity, but rather those moderate and liberal people of faith that I have things in common with. The way you insist on generalizing and trashing Christians, I suspect that you have more in common with Fundies than do I.

The kind that is married to a Christian, has great friends who are Christians, works for a Christian, and realizes that Christianity is not filled with deluded, superstitious, theocrats, who'd sooner slit my throat than have a conversation with me. I'm not sorry if that doesn't meet with your standards, because that'd worry me.

Sure, the wolf of knowledge, in the sheep of understanding's clothing. I bring to knowlegde of science, with the understanding that it does not conflict with religion.

Remember this debate started with "why is creationism rife in the USA." Some people, you included, think that it is because Christianity is rife in the USA. But that is not the problem. Arrogence is. It is arrogent for an atheist to claim science as his own and wield it as a club against people of faith. Science is a communial effort of humanity that bears no alliegiance to any race, creed, ethnicity, politic, or religion. The only thing that the misguided efforts of people like you do is encourage people of faith the turn away from science, encourage school boards to concentrate their efforts elsewhere, and encourage humanity to see you as a fool. If you really want science education to improve, stop insisting that it must be done by removing religion from peoples lives. Then you'd made some progress.

The accuracy of science can not be determined by emotion, philosophy, politics, or religion.

~~RvFvS~~

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

RufusAtticus

Well then take your venting to another forum. The topic here is "Evolution/Creationism" not "Atheism/Xianity." I suspect that ~~Elsewhere~~ or General Religious Discussion would be a better place for your vents.

~~RvFvS~~

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

seebs

Starboy, I'm a Christian, and I'd really like you to keep posting to IIDB.

Unfortunately, I am aware that consistency with your stated opposition to anything and everything that any Christian anywhere wants, regardless of what it might be or what the reasons for it might be, requires you to leave.

However, I cannot in good conscience refrain from expressing my desire that you stay around.

Starboy

Did I miss something? Am I being asked to leave IID?

Starboy

Maybe I have missed something here, but there is a movement in the country to teach religion in the schools. There is a movement to break down the spearation of church and state. There is a movement to enforce biblical notions of social behavior. The atheists are not the ones advocating it, it is the Christians. There have been those here that say, well it is the "extremist" Christians that are doing it. All I have to say is that I am for a completely secular society. If the majority of Christians were also for a secular society then we would not be having this discussion. My point is and always has been, where are all these tolerant Chrisitians?

This is my last post here since it appears I have stretched tolerance to its limits.

Starboy