Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PopeInTheWoods · 06-13-2002, 07:28 AM

I'm not a regular denizen of these "higher" forums, so if my last couple of, ummm, non-scholarly posts are inappropriate, I would not be miffed if this were shipped off to MRD or something.

The simple point of my OP was to add other options to the L-cubed Trilemma, so that the resulting choices contained as little question-begging as possible. For example, having both "Lord" and "Myth" as choices leaves open the question regarding the historical accuracy of the NT.

Andy

Vinnie · 06-13-2002, 08:35 AM

"""You know, when Toto and Gurdur found you funny, I was really pissed off. It was the classical case of a christian challenging an atheist, then in the face of a strong rebuttal, he turns around and makes it a joke to cover up his embarrasment."""""

No, my posts started out as a joke from the outset. Try the fallacy files at nizkor or the here at II. My initial two arguments were blatantly begging the question. I employed circular reasoning. Then the "Refute that" with the tongue sticking out icon! I was following the suit of Grumpy who posted something similar:

Quote:

I can prove Jesus wasn't a liar or a lunatic. He was Lord, and therefore would not have such negative attributes. Ergo, he told the truth when he said he was God.

Quote:

Examples of Begging the Question

1.
Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."

4.
Interviewer: "Your resume looks impressive but I need another reference."
Bill: "Jill can give me a good reference."
Interviewer: "Good. But how do I know that Jill is trustworthy?"
Bill: "Certainly. I can vouch for her."

Taken from: <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html" target="_blank">http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html</a>

Reading my post with the initial two arguments in it should have been like watching a dog chase its tail. Not as a classic case of a Christian engaging an atheist and then later backpeddling.

Vinnie

Toto · 06-13-2002, 09:18 AM

Vinnie - it's nice to see a Christian able to laugh at these sorts of things, but then why are you a Christian? (25 words or less, or just point me you a good URL)

Ted Hoffman · 06-13-2002, 09:39 AM

Toto
No, my posts started out as a joke from the outset. Try the fallacy files at nizkor or the here at II. My initial two arguments were blatantly begging the question. I employed circular reasoning. Then the "Refute that" with the tongue sticking out icon! I was following the suit of Grumpy who posted something similar:
Why shouldn't I believe you are still saving face further with Nikzor project?

Popeinthewoods did not start the thread as a joke and claiming you were merely being cheeky is not enough. People say what they mean all the time with their tongues sticking out. Providing a link to the Nikzor project is not enough.

In any case, the fact that you believe in God is begging the question. You are not in a position to laugh yourself off son. Your audience are keen and the wand may not work this time.

Toto has already seen your clever ruse and asks:
Vinnie - it's nice to see a Christian able to laugh at these sorts of things, but then why are you a Christian? (25 words or less, or just point me you a good URL)

I simply cant wait.

James Still · 06-13-2002, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by IntenSity:
And James Still was the last straw.

Did I say something wrong? Hopefully the camel's back is okay...

Toto · 06-13-2002, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CX:


I know there is biblical material decrying idolatry and such, but what is the strongest evidence for proto-Israelite polytheism. Are there extra-biblical or archaeological sources? I know of one inscription that seems to put YHWH consorting with Asherah. What else is there? The common Judeo-Xian spin is that the early faithful Jews in the Southern kingdom considered the gods of the Canaanites to be fictions and that they practiced strict monotheism.

Put "Hebrew Goddess" into a search engine or Amazon. I think there are at least 2 books with those words in the name. There's also an old thread in the archives you might be able to find.

Vinnie · 06-13-2002, 10:32 AM

"""Why shouldn't I believe you are still saving face further with Nikzor project?""""

I couldn't care less whether you do or don't. I've said enough. Believe what you want. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it tonight

And Toto, I think I might need at least 50 words. Its hard for me to sum my views up meaningfully in 25 words.

Vinnie

PopeInTheWoods · 06-13-2002, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by IntenSity:
Popeinthewoods did not start the thread as a joke and claiming you were merely being cheeky is not enough.

True, I was looking for some real input to my initial premise. But again, as one more used to the "free-for-all" feel of the Miscellaneous Forums, I'm not bent out of shape by any less-than-serious responses. Heck, I've probably contributed more than my share of irrelevancy to date.

Andy

Ted Hoffman · 06-14-2002, 04:20 AM

Waiting...

NOGO · 06-14-2002, 06:14 AM

Quote:

ilgwamh
2 Tim 3:15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

From birth Timothy knew the scriptures of the old and new testaments. The Bible is true. An easy modification of my arguments above could this conclusion. It can be formally demonstrated.

"Scriptures" in 2 Tim 3:15 is refering to the Jewish bible, not the NT.

Who decided what the NT would contain (ie which books) and when did that become sciptures?

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06-13-2002, 07:28 AM	#51
PopeInTheWoods Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Rochester NY USA Posts: 4,318	I'm not a regular denizen of these "higher" forums, so if my last couple of, ummm, non-scholarly posts are inappropriate, I would not be miffed if this were shipped off to MRD or something. The simple point of my OP was to add other options to the L-cubed Trilemma, so that the resulting choices contained as little question-begging as possible. For example, having both "Lord" and "Myth" as choices leaves open the question regarding the historical accuracy of the NT. Andy

06-13-2002, 09:18 AM	#53
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Vinnie - it's nice to see a Christian able to laugh at these sorts of things, but then why are you a Christian? (25 words or less, or just point me you a good URL)

06-13-2002, 09:39 AM	#54
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Toto No, my posts started out as a joke from the outset. Try the fallacy files at nizkor or the here at II. My initial two arguments were blatantly begging the question. I employed circular reasoning. Then the "Refute that" with the tongue sticking out icon! I was following the suit of Grumpy who posted something similar: Why shouldn't I believe you are still saving face further with Nikzor project? Popeinthewoods did not start the thread as a joke and claiming you were merely being cheeky is not enough. People say what they mean all the time with their tongues sticking out. Providing a link to the Nikzor project is not enough. In any case, the fact that you believe in God is begging the question. You are not in a position to laugh yourself off son. Your audience are keen and the wand may not work this time. Toto has already seen your clever ruse and asks: Vinnie - it's nice to see a Christian able to laugh at these sorts of things, but then why are you a Christian? (25 words or less, or just point me you a good URL) I simply cant wait.

06-13-2002, 10:32 AM	#57
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	"""Why shouldn't I believe you are still saving face further with Nikzor project?"""" I couldn't care less whether you do or don't. I've said enough. Believe what you want. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it tonight And Toto, I think I might need at least 50 words. Its hard for me to sum my views up meaningfully in 25 words. Vinnie

06-14-2002, 04:20 AM	#59
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Waiting...

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