doghouse

And that argument would be wrong, in my opinion.

I disagree that my moderate drinking (1-2 drinks per day) in any way condones those who drink excessively to the point of harming themselves, their family, or others. And yes I�m sure I won�t get drunk and drive, or do something else stupidly dangerous. Just like I�m sure I won�t put one round in a revolver, stick it to my head (or my child�s head) and pull the trigger to see what happens.

Eating is socially acceptable. But a lot of people eat excessively to the point of harming themselves at great emotional cost to their families and financial costs to society. Are you going to blame those of us who eat in moderation for this?

Let�s be real. There are going to be drunk drivers on the road and alcoholics beating their wives regardless of whether I drink a glass of Cabernet with my dinner or not. You can�t blame those who consume alcohol in moderation for those that abuse alcohol.

It�s not my problem in that I didn�t cause it. It is my (and society�s) problem in that it affects me and everybody else.

edited because I was too drunk to type correctly

Monkeybot

Honestly, I don't think it's my fault if other people can't control themselves. People are responsible for their own behaviour, even after they've had a few drinks. We don't consider it not-rape if they (or their victims) were drunk; ditto for drunk drivers. If you can't handle yourself in a certain situation, you should avoid it.

Drinking socially may implicitly condone drinking to excess, but it is still the individual's choice to drink -- and to decide what to do while drunk. In fact, if you are not able to stop drinking once you start, that's a sign of alcoholism -- which tells me that the problem rests with the drinker, not the drink itself or other people who drink in moderation. (Note: I am not blaming alcoholics per se; I consider it a disease and I know it is a horrible thing to struggle with. Still, I do not think that somehow puts the onus on me not to drink in moderation, although I would avoid doing so in the presence of a known alcoholic.)

Anyway, I think social drinking is a far cry from condoning what people DO under the influence of an excess of alcohol. It probably sounds like a silly distinction to you, but I think it's important. I have crossed the line from drinking socially to drinking in excess, as I'd wager a lot of people have -- but I'd also wager a lot of people who drink "to excess" simply go home, puke, and pass out (not necessarily in that order). IOW, you only really hear about the people who drink to excess and do dangerous things -- you don't hear so much about the people who drink to excess, but only spend the next day barfing. Unless doing stupid things is part of the definition of drinking "to excess."

Incidentally, "going home" does not always necessitate a car. In my opinion, a better public transportation infrastructure would VASTLY help the drunk driving problem. When I lived in Japan, the land of trains, I rarely worried about how I would get home after a night of drinking -- and in fact, few do. You don't have to drive anywhere, certainly not to the bar. IMHO, a better bus or taxi system in the US would go a long way towards the drunk driving problem.

And finally, I'd like to say I find it really funny when Americans thnk they (as a society) drink too much, because in my (admittedly limited) experience we are one of the driest countries on the planet. Seriously. If you think social drinking is bad here, try the UK or Japan or...

elwoodblues

And I'd call you lucky. Once you take that fourth drink, or seventh drink, wherever that line is, you're rolling the dice. And you'll roll snake eyes eventually. Might be walking off a bridge in a drunken stupor on your way home because you turned left where you should have turned right. Might be deciding, in a drunken haze, that "I'm not that drunk", and getting in your car anyways. It might be tripping and hitting the curb with your teeth, or passing out in the wrong position before you throw up, or some other damned fool thing I can't even conceive of while stone cold sober. It's not the final action that I consider irresponsible. It's throwing the fucking dice in the first place.

Just because you haven't done something like that yet doesn't mean you won't. If you think that, it's some awful silly logic you're using.

Really, I agree. I'm not necessarily trying to attach blame. But if the world was a place where social drinking did not happen, and people could not use that excuse to poison themselves stupid 4 times a week, it'd happen less.

Look at it from the other side, someone who feels the need to drink. It makes it a whole lot easier if most people around him drink. In fact, it becomes very difficult not to drink if a lot of people do and don't see anything wrong with it. And for them, 1 or 2 drinks is always 1 or 2 too many.

Oh, come off it. Eating is necessary to keep your carcass alive. The same thing cannot even remotely be said about drinking alcohol. It's pleasant. It's fun. That's great. But what price is that fun worth?

HaysooChreesto!

Oh come off it mommy. In the end, if you don't want to drink don't. If you can't handle booze then don't bother drinking it. I can't handle the high power couch weed that the kids are smoking these days so I don't do it.
But don't project your inexperienced paranoia on to every else.

Would you outlaw alcohol if you had the chance?

elwoodblues

No. And I'd legalize pot if I could. But just because something's legal doesn't mean you should do it.

You're probably right. You can probably drink your whole life without doing anything dangerously stupid, without killing anyone or hurting anyone too badly.

Probably.

So, so much you're willing to hang from 'probably', especially considering you don't need to drink.

Hedwig

I'm not attempting to argue with anyone, elwood. But isn't hanging from "probably" how we do most things?

elwoodblues

You know what else worries me? When it comes up in conversation that I don't drink, the first question is usually "Why?" It's as if the default state of a human being is supposed to be one that wants to change their mental state with chemicals.

Or, better yet, "What happened?" As if the only way I could choose not to drink is if I had some sort of childhood trauma, or I was an alcoholic. What in the fuck is that?

Monkeybot

Elwood, it's not a roll of the dice. If I know (or even suspect) I am going to be drinking, I plan appropriately. I bring friends along, so we can look out for each other. I plan a way home. I take enough money that I can call a taxi if I need to. If I think I'm getting too drunk to control myself, I stop drinking.

If I don't think I'll be able to get home, or if I think a drinking situation looks suspicious (i.e. frat party)... I don't go. I certainly don't go alone if that's the case. Of course, not everybody does this. But they can, and it's not my fault if they don't.

Seriously... you don't have to lecture me on the dangers of being drunk. My uncle's an alcoholic; for that matter, I'm a female college student. I can think of dangers while I'm drunk that you probably won't ever have to face. I guard my drinks jealously and I make damn sure not to get out of control in the presence of people I don't know. Drinking responsibly -- even drinking a lot responsibly -- can be done.

elwoodblues

Absolutely. Every time I get in a car, there's a chance I might die. Hell, every time I get in the shower. But these are pretty necessary things. Drinking to excess is just not necessary, and the potential consequences are shrugged off by almost every drinker with a simple "Oh, I can handle it", or "That happens to other people." I just want them to acknowledge that they are taking a risk, and try to explain to me why that risk is worth it.

elwoodblues

That's great, Monkeybot. Seriously. I'm glad you take extensive (and, probably, sufficient) measures when you drink. The vast, vast majority of people do not. They don't acknowledge that there is a danger. They think they can 'handle it'. And they won't know otherwise unless they hurt someone. I don't consider public russian roulette to be a valid manner of research.

You acknowledge the danger. You're NOT cavalier about it. So you plan for it. The vast majority of people do not acknowledge the danger, are incredibly cavalier about it, and make minimal (if any) plans.