peacenik

See this link:

http://money.cnn.com/2003/04/23/news...reut/index.htm

I am also glad they spared the Iraqi Oil Ministry from looting while all of the governmental buildings in Baghdad including museums and hospitals were looted. What a great coincidence; after all we needed to get the oil flowing more than children maimed by OUR bombs needed medical treatment. And the fact that we just happened to bomb two of Al Jazeera's headquarters in Baghdad was also mere coincidence as was the fact that we just happened to unknowingly present forged documents to the U.N. that purportedly proved that Saddam was trying to acquire nuclear weapons from Niger. And yes the secretive bidding process that landed Bechtel that huge contract in rebuilding Iraq also just happens to be coincidence, as was Bush's failure to follow the advice of legal counsel and refrain from selling his stock in Harken, which he insider information about. Is any one in the mainstream media going to point out all of these convenient "coincidences" and call Bush what he is, which is a bald face liar!! :banghead: :banghead:

Loren Pechtel

Those estimating the time needed to accomplish something with uncertainties will tend to estimate high. For it to turn out to be less than a pessimistic estimate proves nothing.

fatherphil

in a practical sense, oil is more useful to the people of iraq than the artifacts. they do need to buy food & other important supplies needed to better their lives.

James Still

According to international law (Hague and Geneva Conventions) the practical needs of food and water are the responsibility of the occupying power. There can be no quid pro quo between oil and food in this case. If a nation invades and occupies a country which has no natural resources to sell the occupier must still provide basic humanitarian needs like food, water, medicine, and shelter. But I think you miss a larger point fatherphil. The U.S. failed to adhere to international law when it did nothing to prevent the looters. Soldiers were stationed at the Oil Ministry but nowhere else. They stood idly by while hospitals and cultural centers were gutted. That is a great shame upon the U.S. that can never be erased. Artifacts that were 6,000 years old are destroyed or looted. The loss is incalculable. It is not just the people of Iraq who suffer this loss but all of us.

junego

This is my first post to this forum, so "Hi all." I've found the level of discussion and information on these boards to be superior and appreciate the hard work and thought put into it. On to my response...


Even in a 'practical sense' this argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Do you have any idea how much those 'artifacts' were worth?? Billions and billions of dollars!! (Actually much of it was literally priceless.) Some of it could have been sold to other museums or legitimate collectors for revenue, if absolutely necessary.

What about the 'practical' useage of such a collection as a future draw for tourism? revenue from those who would come to Iraq to study? revenue from world tours of the artifacts which could also attract more people to visit the country? The oil won't last forever, you know.

Your statement just seems like a weak attempt to excuse the inexcusable. If the US was really interested in the short or long term welfare of the Iraqi's they wouldn't have also allowed the looting of the banks where, for example, the life savings of small shop owners were wiped out or the looting of hospitals or the looting of government ministries where records showing such things as property ownership were kept or the destruction of infrastructure which will now have to be replaced at *additional* cost (and incidentally delays the immediate delivery of food and other supplies/services). How 'practical' was all of that?

If the Louvre or the British Museum or the Vatican or the Smithsonian were looted and their treasures were stolen or destroyed would you be making these kinds of excuses for those who could have (easily) and should have prevented it?

This was and is a cluster####. Heads should roll, starting at the top in the White House.

http://www.iidb.org/ubb/mad.gif

Zar

Where does fatherphil get these ideas? At least Loren Pechtel's excuse conforms to professional standards of plausible deniability for public consumption, and he wisely limits himself to talk of the technical aspects of the oil question.

I think James Still takes the most direct and humane approach to slapping down any ideas that responsibilities should hinge on whether or not the country that has been assaulted has a workable oil industry. Balderdash, I say!

What I find quite depressing is the slippery pseudo-rationality and moral turpitude some are displaying here in order to wiggle out from admitting that a tragedy has occured and that we should have done more to stop it. It appears quite anti-human to my eyes to make these crude calculations, palming our errors off onto the destitute, unwashed Iraqis as if they have no pride as human beings; as if none of them could care less about their history being erased and demolished, as long as they get their grain rations which we withheld and are now "magnanamously" sprinkling into their midst as the "generous" conquerors we are.

I'd laugh at this absurdity if it weren't so real.

Loren Pechtel

I was simply taking the approach I would in the situation.

If I'm called on for a time estimate over something I don't have exact data (and I rarely do--by the time you know how long it's going to take to write something you've pretty much written it) I go with the high end of the range rather than the middle of it.

Sauron

Perhaps the unemployed in Washington DC should sell the old papers in the Capitol - like the Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

After all, that would bring them the cash to buy food and other important supplies needed to better their lives.

[Insult deleted. -Pomp]

Danya

To add to the embarrasment a Fox News and a Boston Globe employee have both been caught trying to smuggle looted art and valuables out of Iraq and into the US. I believe they were seperate incidents and not connected. Then there was the military guy that tried to send a couple of Saddams golden handguns back home to a US military base.

So far the items are said to have been taken from Presidential Palaces, except in the case of the Boston Globe employee in which they did not specify where they came from. The Fox employee had something like 12 paintings and some bonds or certificates of some kind.

They all just added another black eye to our reputation with their greed, ignorance, and insensitivity.

fatherphil

hey, thanks for the attack but the point was that the oil is iraq's source of income, not the antiquities. judging by your anology i think that perhaps you missed my point.

junego, do you honestly think that selling iraq's artifacts could ever have been justified by the coalition?