Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RED DAVE · 02-23-2003, 07:44 PM

More famous socialists, communists or Communists:

Eugene Debs
Norman Thomas
Jack London
Leon Trotsky
William Dean Howells
Michael Harrington
Martin Luther King
Malcom X
Bayard Rustin
A. Philip Randolph
James Baldwin
William Morris
Upton Sinclair

RED DAVE

theyeti · 02-23-2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shake

Yes, the Libertarian Party does use some quotes by Jefferson for a basis.

�May it be to the world... to assume the blessings and security of self-government.� -- Thomas Jefferson, 1821.
--------------------------------------------------------

I don't think Jefferson's notion of "self-government" has much to do with what the Libertarians mean by self-government. Jefferson was most likely referring to what we would call "democracy" in the broad sense, where the power of government is controlled by the people, and thus the people govern themselves. This in constrast to a monarchy or an aristocracy, which were more common at the time, in which the people were governed from above. It was thought by many at the time that the common people couldn't govern themselves, and thus an atistocracy was the natural order of things.

The Libs on the other hand mean something akin to anarchy, in which the government has little or no power. Hence, "self-government" because you are your own lord and master. Unless you plan on eating and having a place to live, in which case you have one or more real lords and masters; but hey, you can choose not to eat and live, so in reality you're free.

If anyone wants to see some non-libertarian quotes from Jefferson, see the top of this page. This one in particular struck me:

Quote:

... legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property... Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right.

Thomas Jefferson (in a letter to James Madison), 1785

Not very libertarian, that.

Quote:

To subscribe to the Liberator Online go here.

Ahh yes, the old Liberator Online. The one thing that helped me break away from libertarianism.

theyeti

RED DAVE · 02-23-2003, 08:52 PM

I've always been amused by the fact tht all those admirers of Jefferson conveniently forget that he was a slave owner. i always like debating libertarians on slavery, that darling child of capitalism for about 350 years

RED DAVE

emphryio · 02-24-2003, 06:05 PM

RedDave,
So of the founders, who did you like if any?

I thought Jefferson seemed the most impressive of the bunch. It seems he was responsible for increased equality and actual freedom than we otherwise might have today. I'm glad he kept the slaves so that he could have the power to be one of the founders, (which he freed on his death.)

If he had been more idealistic, where might we be today?

peacenik · 02-24-2003, 08:26 PM

Thomas Jefferson was anything but a libertarian. Thomas Jefferson considered freedom from monopolies to be one of the fundamental human rights. Furthermore, he was just as wary of powerful corporations as he was of powerful central governments like those proposed by the Federalists. Finally, he fought for the implementation of public education in Virginia. The implementation of these beliefs are antithetical to the libertarian ideals because they all require government intervention.

See the following links:

http://www.thomhartmann.com/jefferson.shtml

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jeffer...s/jeff1370.htm

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02-23-2003, 07:44 PM	#11
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	More famous socialists, communists or Communists: Eugene Debs Norman Thomas Jack London Leon Trotsky William Dean Howells Michael Harrington Martin Luther King Malcom X Bayard Rustin A. Philip Randolph James Baldwin William Morris Upton Sinclair RED DAVE

02-23-2003, 08:52 PM	#13
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	I've always been amused by the fact tht all those admirers of Jefferson conveniently forget that he was a slave owner. i always like debating libertarians on slavery, that darling child of capitalism for about 350 years RED DAVE

02-24-2003, 06:05 PM	#14
emphryio Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: WV Posts: 4,369	RedDave, So of the founders, who did you like if any? I thought Jefferson seemed the most impressive of the bunch. It seems he was responsible for increased equality and actual freedom than we otherwise might have today. I'm glad he kept the slaves so that he could have the power to be one of the founders, (which he freed on his death.) If he had been more idealistic, where might we be today?

02-24-2003, 08:26 PM	#15
peacenik Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 331	Thomas Jefferson was anything but a libertarian. Thomas Jefferson considered freedom from monopolies to be one of the fundamental human rights. Furthermore, he was just as wary of powerful corporations as he was of powerful central governments like those proposed by the Federalists. Finally, he fought for the implementation of public education in Virginia. The implementation of these beliefs are antithetical to the libertarian ideals because they all require government intervention. See the following links: http://www.thomhartmann.com/jefferson.shtml http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jeffer...s/jeff1370.htm

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