Godless Dave

I think there's lots of stuff that's unexplained in the world. But I don't think there's anything unexplainable.

Auf Wiedersehen,

Dave

Mageth

My mother speaks in tongues. It sounds something like this. aba aba ka dab ra la la la mo jo mo jo el ki a ab ra ka dab ra repeat X 20..

Hey, that's an obscure dialect of Doowopese.

Nickle

Just my $0.02.

I had a Swedish roommate a few years ago. Once, I was in his room going through his cd collection looking to borrow some while he was on the phone. After he hung up, I asked him who he was talking to--he said his mother.
I was surprised and asked if he always spoke english to his mother. He said never--he was speaking swedish.
I swear I heard English the whole time. He thought I was on drugs.

I would ask "Kyle" what the woman said exactly.

Also, it seem more probable someone is lying

Eldy

From Eldy: I speak as a believer, so you will know where I come from with my comments.

I believe that all religion is based on personal experience, and therefore cannot be shared with anyone else. No two experiences are alike, and no two human beings are alike. This is why you see the scepticism in the answers of the others. They ask for and require something that cannot be. Personal experiences are often not duplicable. But they are nonetheless credible.

This point may be shown by something that once happened to me. You will not believe because 1) you do not know me, and 2) you are preconditioned to find fault and scepticism in things that might verify supernormal events.

Years ago a friend came to me and said he had to make a payment on his equipment. He was an equipment operator and excavation contractor. He had not received any money on his jobs lately, but needed to make the monthly payment.

I told my friend, Ralph, that I had the money since I had just received my school check, but we needed it to live on the rest of the month. But I said I would loan him the money, and the Lord would return me the money in two weeks. I gave the money "on faith."

A few days later my wife and I received a letter from friends (Archie and Joyce) in Nebraska whom we had not seen nor heard from in about 10 years. The letter had a personal check in it, which was written for the amount I had loaned Ralph a few days earlier.

The message of the letter said, "We were praying for you. The Lord said to send you immediately this check for this amount. We were going to wait for a month and send you twice that amount, but for some reason the Lord desired that we send this amount quickly. We don't understand the rush. But here is the check. We hope you folks are doing fine," etc.

This happened as I have given it. It happened to my wife and me. But you will not believe this personal experience. But since it happened to me, it strengthened my belief in a kindly and loving Heavenly Father.

Your answer, regarding the German language story, in my humble opinion, is either to say you don't know the anwser to the other story (I don't either), or say that you cannot explain everything (you cannot explain most things when it comes to LIFE) or to say that God has not done for me what he may be doing in the lives of those who believe. Or, you can say, "There is no God," and call everyone a liar.

And I am not your run-of-the-mill Christian. Some of them would disown me, I am sad to say.

echidna

Eldy, the problem I have is that the mother of one of my friends is a channeller. Apparently she channels spirits of the departed. I once went to one of her sessions & found it quite amateurish, however that’s her business. Where I have a problem is that she has quite a following of disciples who treat her as their spiritual leader. And I know that on occasion some of them will suddenly come to another understanding of her abilities (typically that she might not be all she claims) & the resultant psychological trauma which her cult subjects people to, is deplorable.

How do I know ? The plot deepens & the father of my brother in law is a clairvoyant who regularly counsels her ex-members while they are emotionally recovering from the experience.

8 years ago she hauled them all off to Egypt where apparently all the starry beings were to ascend to the stars. I really didn’t even bother asking how it went when they all mysteriously reappeared, but I will quite comfortably say that this is NOT healthy behaviour.

Belief in this trickery is either benignly or maliciously deceptive. True spirituality (or whatever) does not require trickery. I am quite able to wonder in awe at the universe without needing to be deceived by charlatans.

echidna

Eldy, the other problem I have, is why He chooses to answer some prayers and not others.

He’s willing to return $50 to you via cheque, but He won’t save someone else’s life by telling them not to drive to work tomorrow ?

The dilemma of prayer and divine intervention portrays a far crueller and selective God than I would ever want to imagine.

Arrowman

Correct. But some people seem to think that they can share, that others can and should see objectively the validity of their experience.

I ask of myself that I base my beliefs and opinions on evidence, but I am not 'asking of others something that cannot be'; I am being asked by others to accept personal experience as objective evidence.

Sorry, they're not. Personal experiences are not inherently "credible". One may question the credibility of the facts (accuracy, omission, selective emphasis etc). And one may question the credibility of the claim (for the explanation of those facts), against equally plausible alternative explanations.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion; they are not entitled to their own set of facts. And everyone is entitled to their beliefs; they are not entitled to have those beliefs blindly accepted or even taken seriously.

Once a friend of mine repeated to me an urban legend as though he had had direct experience of the events in question. I do not understand how he managed to do that. If any event in my life has directly convinced me of the astonishing capacity of the human mind for self-delusion, it was that.

No. For one thing, you misuse the word "scepticism". It means "requiring evidence", not "inherently disbelieving". Not the same thing.

I will not "disbelieve" you, it's just that I will not blindly believe you either. And it's not because I am "preconditioned" against supernatural events. I am prepared to accept that supernatural events may occur; but as long as either the (full) facts are in doubt or unknown, and/or there are plausible non-supernatural alternatives, I will not blindly accept them.

You, on the other hand, believe in the supernatural (not only that, but a very specific supernatural world), and you will readily construct and accept a supernatural explanation for an apparently "mysterious" event based on your belief, without critically examining the alternatives.

One of us is "preconditioned", but it ain't me

I once read a wonderful article by a Skeptic which explained, using simple probability, how it is not only possible for people to dream of the death of a close relative on the night it (the death) happened, it is in fact highly likely that it will happen in the UK at least once a week (IIRC).

I am prepared to believe that the events you describe, took place. It is also true that every day, thousands if not millions of people throughout the world (a) pray for help with money or (b) feel a sudden urge to send money to a relative. Especially if those people pray regularly and are always looking out for ways to help their friends and relatives.

You explained these events using your existing belief and you chose the supernatural explanation because it suits you.

How well do your friends know you? You may not have heard from them for 10 years, but do they know what's going on in your life? Do they know your financial circumstances (ie, you are reliant on a "school check" for your living expenses, and have little or no cash reserves)?

There are a zillion questions one could ask about this case. I am not attacking you or your beliefs; just your assertion that the case is so "open and shut" that it is unreasonable of me to discount it.

Correct.

Correct; but to admit that I cannot explain something (especially when I am relying on personal anecdote for my facts) is not the same as saying "it must have been supernatural".

BZZZZZT!! Wrong answer.

I have questioned Christians as to why it is that their God has spoken to them, but not to me. The answers have never been satisfactory above the level of rationalisation.

But I do not use "God may have done for you what he has not done for me..." as an "explanation" of a series of events. That is (a) to believe in God in the first place, which I don't and (b) entirely illogical and irrational.

I have seen Christians lie about such events, or refuse to retract a story once confronted with its falsehood. But, I don't necessarily call anyone "liar" who tells me such a story. It is possible that they are lying, and that is something I must take into account when assessing the evidence. It is also possible that they are deluded, or have unconsciously left out a crucial fact. But the characterisation of the Skeptical response (or even a possible response) as "There is no God - you're a liar" is quite inaccurate.

Well, it's not so easy to get disowned here. Unless you talk absolute crap, of course We tend to be more tolerant of reasonable Christians, than other Christians are, oftentimes.
- Which, I hasten to add, you are not. Just wrong in parts. Welcome to the IIDB.

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The decision to believe in or accept the supernatural is extremely important - whether for religious reasons or otherwise. To believe in the supernatural when it does not exist, may have extraordinarily damaging consequences for me. I choose not to make that decision without incontrovertible evidence.

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Arrowman ]

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Arrowman ]</p>

Oolon Colluphid

Wow Eldy, you're right! God obviously does answer prayers! I'm off to church!

Perhaps then you'd care to address my point above. Your hypothetical god interferes in the world to pass on a few bucks, but does absolutely sweet fuck all for the millions of babies and toddlers who uncontrollably shit themselves to dehydrational death each year.
(See: <a href="http://www.who.int/aboutwho/en/preventing/diarrhoeal.htm" target="_blank">here</a>)

And that's just diarrhoeal diseases.

Wanna explain god's compassion and logic here?

Your Big Sky Friend makes my stomach turn. If such an entity existed, I wouldn't stop to piss on it if it were on fire.

TTFN, Oolon

liquid

Ever considered the possibility, assuming this happened exactly as you say it, that someone told your relatives?

But I'm sure you'll say you mentioned the fact that you were in a potential state of total poverty to absolutely no-one...

I'm inclined to believe that you may have been sent money. However, I am somewhat dubious about the words you assign to you relatives. Did god walk up to them in the street and go;

"Look guys, twice in a month is ok, but he really needs it now. This much. yep, I've already got the cheque written out. Just needs you to sign on the dotted line".

How did go 'tell' them so precisely, when he seems to have trouble being less than vague on almost anything else?

Mageth

This happened as I have given it. It happened to my wife and me. But you will not believe this personal experience. But since it happened to me, it strengthened my belief in a kindly and loving Heavenly Father.

For the sake of argument, let's say I accept the facts of the experience as you related them (personal experience of events is notoriously unreliable as evidence - look at how many versions of an event can be stated at a trial or recorded in history books). It would be nice if you mentioned the exact amount you loaned your friend and the exact amount of the check. However, even if I accept the facts, there are ample reasons to question the conclusions you reach from the experience.

In addition to the comments made by others above, I would add that:

1) if your benefactors somehow sensed your need for money, the experience could equally be used to "strengthen belief" in other supposedly paranormal phenomenon such as telepathy, remote viewing, ESP, etc. In other words, you are selectively interpreting the experience (and I would imagine other experiences you've had) to justify your particular "belief in a kindly and loving Heavenly Father." How do you rule out other natural and paranormal explanations?

2) on other occasions when you (or others of your faith) needed money or other resources, do you always have those resources "miraculously" provided? In other words, are you overlooking the many occasions when "miracles" were not performed and concentrating on the few occasions that fit your "miracles happen" worldview?