Hawkingfan

No, Amos. No SHAME. No guilt. No fear. Watch the made up connotations. Do you speak English? Why do I always feel like a broken record with you?

Hawkingfan

Thank you very much, Bobzammel. I think you have made a valid point (unlike others in this thread, ahem). I have learned something. As usual, it seems the NT writer's have either misinterpreted the OT (by accident, or on purpose to fit their own beliefs) or never read the original texts. I have not heard of the book of Enoch which is why I wasn't making the connection. I'm interested in learning the Zoroastarian influence. Do you mean Mithra?

Bobzammel

No, not really Mithra...Basically the Zoroastarian religion was the view of a prophet Zoroaster who was told by God(Called Ahura Mazda) and his Angels(Or Avestas) of which there are six(Inspiration for "seven spirits of God?" perhaps?) That Earth is a battleground between Ahura and Ahriman. Ahriman is basically a fallen angel of some sort, who is referred to as "The Lie" or "The Lord Of The Lie" (Which is similar to Satan being addressed as "The Father of Lies" or "The Deceiver"). Eventually Ahura, with a ressurected Zoroaster--who will be reborn of a virgin--will lead an end times battle against Ahriman and there will be a new Heaven and Earth. Interestingly Zoroaster was suppossed to remerge after 1000 years or so, similar to the author of 2 Peter addressing that a day to the Lord is a thousand years.
Zoroastaranism also has a heaven and hell, although the hell is apparentally not permanent(Likewise, REVELATION also states that hell may not be permanent). A ressurection of all dead is also attessted to.
Finally, the religion has a moral and law structure similar to that of The Judaeo-Christian tradition.
The Jewish people were freed by the Persians in the 6th Century A.D and apparentally good friends with them(God gives favorable praise to Cyrus in Isiah despite the fact that Cyrus was a Pagan king!). It was only after this contact that angels received greater importance in Jewish thought and Satan started to evolve from accusser in God's court to evil incarnate and an enemy of God. Zoroastaranism remained a popular religion for about a thousand or so years in Persia before Islam took over(There is evidence of Zoroastaranian influence on Islam as well). Their scriptures were compiled and finalized at about the same time as the post-exilic Jews and the Christians(Around 100 BCE to 300 CE)


Then again, this is fairly rough. I suggest contacting an expert, or look for the Viraf scriptures on the 'net.

Clarice O'C

Except, Bob, what is all of that about in Genesis 3:14-19 with the Genesis writer having God give women great pain in childbearing because of what Eve did and condemning Adam to a life of toil? Sounds like the author is having God punish them.

Best,
Clarice

beyelzu

amos, i really enjoy reading some of your posts, you remind me of ed. you rarely seem to actually answer questions. and this pop psychology reading of genesis is just so much crap and incredibly off topic. so to the original post. i have never considered the logical contradiction of punishing someone for doing a bad thing when they have no concept of good or bad. i think that that is a great point.

Amos

Well Clarice pain is just an illusion with a purpose. Under hypnosis there is no pain and when we are under hypnosis we lose track of the great pretender we are and therefore we lose all sense of pain. In other words, no ego equals no pain.

Amos

Only those who see evil are affected by pain because good must be equal in proportion to bad for good and evil to be opposite to each other. So it is all a matter of perception, I guess. I should add here that evil only can be conceived to exist in our conscious mind, which is exactly where pain is perceived.

capnkirk

Hawkingfan,

Here are some insights that the thread has not thus far touched on.

As you probably already know, there exists in the epic of Gilgamesh (dating from 2700 BC Sumeria, where the Jewish tribes originated, which later became the Babylon from which Abraham(?) led his people) a tale with many of the elements of the garden of eden, including a tree of knowledge, a serpent, and an expulsion , but excluding the condemnation of Eve. (There are numerous sites on the web that a "gilgamesh" search will turn up.). This is evidence that the "roots" of the expulsion from the garden myth were adopted by the Jews from their progenitors in the Euphrates valley before they immigrated westward to the trans-Jordan and became an independent ethnic entity.

The above sets the foundation for the postulation (as presented by scholar Merlin Stone in his book WHEN GOD WAS A WOMAN) that this myth was largely neglected until after the exodus when, upon entering Canaan and finding themselves a small minority (both by population and religion) in a land where the Goddess Ishtar was the dominant deity, were threatened with cultural extinction via assimilation into the new religion. The social organization supporting this religion was matrilineal, and the religious orders were female. In matrilineal societies (unlike patrilineal societies) it was largely immaterial who the father of a child was (inheritance being determined by one's mother, and that being certain). For this reason, family organization was also different in that female fidelity to a specific male was relatively unimportant. Polyandry (the practice of one woman having multiple husbands) was acceptable, if not prolific. The priestesses in the temple openly took on multiple male lovers as a perfectly acceptable and culturally normal practice. Because of this process, the patriarchial Jewish elders derided them as "temple whores".

The Jewish leaders were alarmed at the "defection" of significant numbers of their tribes to this blasphemous religion. So they revived (and rewrote) the Adam and Eve myth to use as a deterrant to would be defectors. They specifically created parallels between the (Sumerian) myth and the practices of the priestesses (their use of venomous serpents to induce "visions" containing wisdom) as well as their symbols (the tree of life) in such a way as to destroy the credibility of the worship of Ishtar (and thus its threat) by casting Eve (surrogate priestess within the political context of the rewrite) as "deluded, immoral, untrustworthy" so as to convince the Jewish patriarchs that having anything to do with Ishtar was tantamount to being cast out of the "garden" again! Essentially the intent was to chide the patriarchs "not to be fooled by woman as Adam was".

The specific details of the preceding may not be exact (so don't choke off the message over them), because the sense of the argument survives. That is all I will vouch for, as it has been at least 10 yrs since I read Stone's book, and my memory for the details has blurred with time.

Stone's documentation offers a path from a myth that predates the Jewish tribes to its transformation to political purpose. As so often happens, interpretations (and outright inventions) of scriptural authority by religious leaders for political purposes become permanently ordained after sufficient time passes for the political element to pass from memory, leaving only the "holy" scripture for future generations.

Perhaps you will find this information helpful in your ultimate understanding of the A & E myth, and its place in Xianity.

Bobzammel

Except, Bob, what is all of that about in Genesis 3:14-19 with the Genesis writer having God give women great pain in childbearing because of what Eve did and condemning Adam to a life of toil? Sounds like the author is having God punish them.

-----------

From my reading, it seems that God is doing this partially to prevent them from gaining too much power. God creates man sort of semi-humble. Once he eats of the tree, mankind starts to present a threat to divine power, and so God puts in sanctions. Interestingly the sanctions are not as bad as the NT makes them out to be; it is mainly mankind taking on the heavier responsibilities and burdens of civilization. Then the divine and mankind start mating. Another threat. God wipes them out with the flood. Then the Tower of Babel. Mankind is reaching up to be like God. Sanction 3-tower destroyed.


Anyway, a similar set-up is found in the Greek Prometheus myth.

vtran31

My biggest problem is that Eve is blamed for the fall of man. See 1 Timothy 2:14 which says: "For Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."
But if you read the scriptures Genesis 2:15-23 and Genesis 3:1-5, you will notice that God told Adam not to eat the fruit BEFORE Eve was created. It is implied later on that Adam or God relayed that message to her, but I do not see how Eve is to have MORE blame than Adam when it was Adam who heard it straight from the horses mouth. Why is Adam even exempt from being deceived? He WAS deceived.

Actually the text never says that. it just says Eve was decieved. its possibleAdam knew full well the consequences but was incompetant enough to do what Eve told him. Eve though she would not die and beleived the serpants story over what GOd said

Also, I do not see why God could blame Adam and Eve for sinning by disobeying him whenever they wouldn't be able to discern right from wrong BEFORE eating the fruit.

Well God gave them a command. Both Adam and Eve knew the command. they did not keep the command. seems they knew right and wrong to me

It also seems a slap in the face for God to put a guard around the Tree of Eternal life whenever he could have done the same for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (before they obeyed the serpent). It seems like he wanted them to fail.

or maybe He desired a true relationship that was not forced and allowed the option of rejecting God