Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HelenM · 02-06-2003, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
Depends on what I had to do to stop the suffering. The most obvious case where the answer would be yes is if in order to stop the suffering I would have to destroy all of the people or keep them from ever existing. In that case I would let them suffer since I would consider that to be the least offensive of the two choices.

In some sense this is a trick question because it doesn't spell out what it would take to stop the suffering. The cure could be much worse than the disease.

Starboy

Indeed.

It also depends what the suffering is. I mean, I don't think any human life is totally devoid of all suffering. And in a sense you could say that a person's suffering is caused by the parents who conceived them. So, by not sterilizing all adults, we are 'letting' today's adults 'cause' the suffering all future people by conceiving those future people.

Is that wrong???

Is it wrong to have a child that you know is not going to be within the normal range, physically or mentally? How do you know whether that child will 'suffer' or not, because of their physical/mental abnormalities?

Helen

Starboy · 02-06-2003, 08:51 AM

Yes Helen, these are very tough questions in which there are no cut and dry answers and each person must live with what ever decision they make. (rant on) This is why it is so very important that people of conviction, what ever it may be, only seek the freedom to exercise their own convictions and do not try to impose them on others. (/rant off)

Starboy

HelenM · 02-06-2003, 08:55 AM

I don't try to impose my convictions on others, fwiw...I share my convictions, sometimes, but I respect each person's right to make up their own mind and to do what seems best to them (except where doing so would hurt others).

Helen

Starboy · 02-06-2003, 08:57 AM

Good for you Helen. I only wish more people felt that way.

wildernesse · 02-06-2003, 09:00 AM

That's an interesting view, Starboy. I've been focusing on the actions of the 2 people, but you and Helen have shown me a different way to approach this.

I assumed that "no suffering" would automatically mean goodness and light--but not if ending that suffering or preventing suffering meant ending or preventing the existance of the sufferers.

Interesting. Thanks for changing my perspective a little bit.

--tibac

Starboy · 02-06-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
That's an interesting view, Starboy. I've been focusing on the actions of the 2 people, but you and Helen have shown me a different way to approach this.

I assumed that "no suffering" would automatically mean goodness and light--but not if ending that suffering or preventing suffering meant ending or preventing the existance of the sufferers.

Interesting. Thanks for changing my perspective a little bit.

--tibac

It was kind of obvious, in this context those two people could only be Adam and Eve and the suffering would be from the punishment of casting them out from Eden. If god did not punish them we would not be here. It is a very tricky mythological explanation for the difficulty of life as opposed to one based on modern explanative constructs. Today we understand our suffering to be the result of natural competition and the arbitrary effects of the natural world rather than the result of a whimsical supreme being. The suffering is still there, just a different explanation.

Starboy

Mad Kally · 02-06-2003, 10:48 AM

and they just keep going and going and going... Do xians have energizer batteries to keep these rationalizations and fairy tale stories going?

"To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."

--- Thomas Paine

ManM · 02-06-2003, 10:53 AM

Mad Kally,
Billions of suffering people is a bad thing. I do not think anyone here denies that point. However, I would let billions of people suffer for the actions of two people if and only if there were good utilitarian reasons to do so. I am not willing to blindly discard the possibility that such reasons exist. Now, do you want to thoughtfully discuss this topic? Or would you rather stand aloof in a holier-than-thou manner and rain down insults and cute one liners?

Starboy · 02-06-2003, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Kally
and they just keep going and going and going... Do xians have energizer batteries to keep these rationalizations and fairy tale stories going?

I hope not. IMO the only chance humans have to alleviate our suffering is to understand our surroundings the best we can. It is time to jettison first century thinking. It is a great impediment!

Starboy

Mad Kally · 02-06-2003, 10:58 AM

I don't believe in fictional creatures. They do not exist. It's obvious you are all thinking of the Adam and Eve fable written by a bunch of superstitious goat herders sitting around a campfire trying to figure out why there are those little twinkly holes in the night sky.

Quote:

ManM:
Now, do you want to thoughtfully discuss this topic? Or would you rather stand aloof in a holier-than-thou manner and rain down insults and cute one liners?

Xians can not discuss reality. No thank you. I am a better person than the likes of you.

Quote:

"Who you jivin' with that cosmic debris?"
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be."
"If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine -- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good -- and CARES about any of it -- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working."

Frank Zappa, American musician (1940-1993).
[The Real Frank Zappa Book, ("Church and State" chapter) by Frank Zappa and Peter Occhiogrosso, p. 301]

View Poll Results: Would you let billions of people suffer for the actions of two people?
Yes	7	13.73%
No	36	70.59%
I might, I might not	8	15.69%
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02-06-2003, 08:51 AM	#62
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Yes Helen, these are very tough questions in which there are no cut and dry answers and each person must live with what ever decision they make. (rant on) This is why it is so very important that people of conviction, what ever it may be, only seek the freedom to exercise their own convictions and do not try to impose them on others. (/rant off) Starboy

02-06-2003, 08:55 AM	#63
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	I don't try to impose my convictions on others, fwiw...I share my convictions, sometimes, but I respect each person's right to make up their own mind and to do what seems best to them (except where doing so would hurt others). Helen

02-06-2003, 08:57 AM	#64
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Good for you Helen. I only wish more people felt that way.

02-06-2003, 09:00 AM	#65
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	That's an interesting view, Starboy. I've been focusing on the actions of the 2 people, but you and Helen have shown me a different way to approach this. I assumed that "no suffering" would automatically mean goodness and light--but not if ending that suffering or preventing suffering meant ending or preventing the existance of the sufferers. Interesting. Thanks for changing my perspective a little bit. --tibac

02-06-2003, 10:48 AM	#67
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	and they just keep going and going and going... Do xians have energizer batteries to keep these rationalizations and fairy tale stories going? "To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead." --- Thomas Paine

02-06-2003, 10:53 AM	#68
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	Mad Kally, Billions of suffering people is a bad thing. I do not think anyone here denies that point. However, I would let billions of people suffer for the actions of two people if and only if there were good utilitarian reasons to do so. I am not willing to blindly discard the possibility that such reasons exist. Now, do you want to thoughtfully discuss this topic? Or would you rather stand aloof in a holier-than-thou manner and rain down insults and cute one liners?

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