Bible Humper

Are you serious? Don't mean this in a bad way, but are you uneasy in social situations? An introvert?

This seems like an extreme point of view to have, so I'm just wondering what leads you to think this.

OMG, some of you guys give women no credit at all. They are all WELL aware of the distinct possibility that any guy they don't know who starts talking with her, in whatever context, is interested. Maybe you could have blindsided them when they were 12 or something, but not any more. LOL.

Women are NATURALLY so much better at the mating game than men that you can safely put this gross misconception out of your mind. They know. Ask the women here.

BDS

Por su puesto, Bible humper. Of course they know.

But good manners nonetheless requires men to maintain a comfortable fiction.

Also, my entire point is that asking about a boyfriend too early in the conversation is going to scare the woman off -- so we agree on that one. It would be silly to ask -- almost as silly as expecting a woman to volunteer the information without being asked (which is what this whole thread was about).

The poem, by the way, is called "To Electra" and was written by Cavalier poet Robert Herrick in the 1700s. I quoted it because I like it. I thought maybe (just maybe) someone else might like it to. When I posted it, I can assure everyone, I had no hopes of getting laid. It was merely a friendly gesture of sharing something fun. Sort of like buying a drink for the house.

Bible Humper

Very true. But on the other hand, you don't necessarily have to be looking for something to find it. Or it find you.

Many women consider it a point of pride that they have never been picked up in a club. You've really got to stand out from the crowd in this environment if you want to overcome this. More later.

Just want to say that offering to buy drinks is not a good move at all. Never do it. I know that you see everyone doing it, and it is a traditional and even expected thing, but they are the ones in the wrong. Most of the reasons I said it is bad for an opener continue to apply.

When a woman asks ME to buy her a drink, I tease her about "hitting on me" and "trying to pick me up". I then agree to do it, but say that she has to give me something in return. She asks what, and I say I want a kiss for it. If she says no I say "just on the cheek". If she says ok but then gives me one on the cheek when she gets her drink I say "What am I, your uncle?". If she doesn't give you a real one now on her own, DON'T push it . Just tease her more and tell her she has to call you Uncle Jay for the rest of the night Be fun, playful, and funny with her. Distinguish yourself from all the horny pervs who are all serious right from the word "go". Keep making her call you uncle in a playful way when she forgets, and she'll often eventually go for a real kiss on her own.

MasterJackass

Bible humper, I think you're a little too suave to post on this board. Come on buddy, nerd it up a little.

Dr. Retard

I'm not uneasy in the sorts of social situations I'm used to, where everyone's just shooting the shit with no real hidden agendas. I am quite introverted, if those Myers-Briggs tests are any indication.

But it's not so much a point of view as an attitude. I'm not saying it's wrong or evil to have a different attitude. I'm just saying I can't relate to it or identify with it at all. The whole thing looks like taking the methods of a carnie or a car salesman and applying them to more intimate social relations. And that creeps me out.

Hey, I've long taken for granted that many women are well aware of the unspoken motives of men in a bar. However, this thread paints a more complicated picture. For example, cheetah says:

Apparently, not all women have the same expectations. And obviously, not all men have the same expectations. So when people naturally respond to each other's perceived expectations, this apparently isn't yielding some perfect and well-understood code of behavior. This isn't me failing to give women credit. This is being realistic.

And this is why I said you can't count on unspoken expectations to give the right signals. And so in order to be considerate of others, you have to be straightforward and candid about your intentions.

Bible Humper

Nope. You can make a weak case for "deceptive" if you want, but it doesn't manipulate, as I explained earlier.

Wrong! There is nothing creepy about harmless neutral banter with a cool stranger who had something to say. Persistence and confidence don't just pay off because they keep you from giving up if she doesn't immediately exclaim "Oh shit, there goes my wet pussy again" as soon as you say hi. These traits are also attractive in themselves to women.

I'm not talking about the groping, drooling, pleading losers that women all hate putting up with. You can't expect all women to open quickly, a great many of them are shy, especially when alone.

The social pressure against being rude doesn't apply when you are hitting on her. Women feel no way about blowing you off when you do that. All I'm doing is making a full interaction between us begin as comfortably for her as possible. I'm just getting over the initial hump by melting the ice instead of trying to break it.

Hey, people make all sorts of decisions influenced by how they feel at that moment.

Do this little experiment. Stand up straight, hold your shoulders back, your chest out, your head high, and smile. Now try to be all negative and depressed.

Not only does your body reflect your mood, but the reverse also applies to some degree. Smiling, like laughter, is also contagious, so you are even sharing the wealth when you do it.

It isn't like I'm unique in this, everyone has a "polite" smile or laugh that they have on hand when needed.

A good smile conveys warmth and is contagious, and if making her feel good from whatever chemical smiling releases (endorphins?) makes her more inclined to view me favourably, it is still her who makes the call.

I don't manipulate, but I do influence. But if you want to disparage that, you should be consistent and also disapprove of proper grooming and clothing which enhances the appeal of BOTH sexes, thus influencing whether or not we will find this person attractive.

The only difference between a lot of what I do and the things everyone does is that some of my stuff communicates on different levels.

WTF is rude and presumptuous about talking about things she likes????

Typical dudes who talk about work and the weather are boring as hell to them anyways, so it isn't like she wouldn't prefer what I talk with her about instead.

A personal level? I'm not asking the girl in the example if she likes it up the ass, I'm just talking about her favourite type of book for Christ's sake!



Actually, you are about 10% right here. What I do does have similarities with salesmanship, if only because sales and seduction both utilise many forms of influence, many of which are universally used without anyone giving it a second thought (enhancing your looks).

Pushy doesn't work, and I never do that. Confidence and persistence are not pushiness. I'm not obnoxious either, though I am cocky

Bible Humper

Ok, I'm not passing judgement on your own attitude, but rather on your point of view that it is remarkable that other people "talk to a stranger just to make conversation" or have sex.

That is what you expressed in the other post, it seems. Now you say that you don't think it wrong if others have different attitudes, so I guess you don't pass judgement on it but don't see why anyone would do it? Is that accurate?

Well, those professions earn their bread strictly by their utilisation of the various tools of persuasion, so I guess anything that also uses some of those concepts is going to have certain similarities.

We all use these things to some degree or other all our lives, though, so I don't think it should creep anyone out.

Ok, I hear ya on this one, though I don't agree with that quote of cheetah's (missed that somehow).

I don't think it is fair in any way, shape, or form to expect a guy to tell a woman that he isn't really interested in what she has to say, but only wants sex. Not many guys have this attitude anyway, they still want to flirt and interact beforehand. I personally don't consider that a chore....

I'm also surprised that she said that a guy who doesn't explicitly say to her that he wants to have sex with her when they start conversing. There are obvious social conventions that make such an approach neither practical nor appreciated in the vest majority of cases. I don't agree with that at all.

No man, it isn't an either/or decision!

You should neither expect sex just for buying a drink, nor be expected to say "Hi there, just want to chat you up a bit before I ask you take me home". The truth is between these extremes....

Bible Humper

Ahh, ok then. It's all cool man, friendly salvos from our different outlooks on things.

Bible Humper

Haha, I'm still a chess loving, ex RPG playing, book loving, nerd of nerds at heart.

No reason why the two HAVE to be mutually exclusive

Another thing to add: I'm not a "natural" who always knew what to do, I had to put women through Batman's de-riddling computer in order to get my share.

NHGH

OK, it's pretty clear to me that we're never going to agree on this subject. Our ideas of what constitutes appropriate social behavior are just too wildly divergent. But here's my personal take on the matter:

We could quibble about the meaning of "deceptive", but to me it's an airtight case. Your stated intention is to conceal your intentions from the "target". Similarly for "manipulative", although here there may be a little more wiggle room. In my view, being deceptive in order to gain some sort of personal advantage (which seems to be the case here) qualifies as "manipulative". YMMV.

But that's not what we're talking about here. You originally said, "If she seems like a cold fish, don't give up!" I took "seems like a cold fish" to mean that she doesn't respond to your attempts to start a conversation, presumably because she's not interested in talking to you. Continuing to talk to her in those circumstances doesn't seem like "persistence and confidence" to me; it sounds rude and pushy.

I suppose different women will find different things attractive; and not being a woman myself, I can't comment with certainty on how a woman would respond to being approached like this. Personally, though, I can't conceive of this sort of behavior being "attractive" (though no doubt at least a few women find it so). As I've said before, on the few occasions I've been subjected to something like this I've resented it.

I think your response here misses the point.

1) The whole point of your approach, unless I'm seriously misunderstanding you, is precisely to prevent her from picking up on the fact that you're hitting on her, so that she will feel bound by the social pressure against being rude. To my mind, this is a textbook case of manipulation. I don't see what else you could call it.

2) Even if you weren't trying to hit on her, this would still be unacceptable behavior.

I think this may be where we fundamentally disagree. In my view, if I'm in a bookstore or similar venue, going about my business, a perfect stranger has no business speaking to me at all unless (s)he's got a good reason--and hitting on me (or just making conversation) doesn't qualify. Obviously, you see things quite differently.

...

If a perfect stranger approached me and asked me questions about what I was reading and what I liked about it, my gut reaction would be: "Who the f#!% are you and what the f#!% business is it of yours what I read or why?" Mind you, I wouldn't say that out loud for reasons of decorum, but I'd certainly be thinking it. As a stranger, it's not his/her place to ask such questions.

Of course, it's less intrusive to ask a stranger what they're reading than to ask them if they like it up the ass, but in my view both questions are boundary violations.