Freethought & Rationalism Archive

free12thinker · 05-10-2002, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fastfalcon:
Diana,
I just posted the more common sins, though I should have said adultery and homosexual acts. And yes, even the infants. Think of sin as a gene. Since Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God, they have passed down a 'sin gene' through all the lines of humanity. Jesus was the only one who did not sin because His Father is God. back to infants: HOWEVER, unborn babies, infants and young children do not yet have the capability to know right from wrong so God does not hold them accountable. Here is the full Ten Commandments:

1. I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (idols, statues etc.)
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.
Quit spitting your curses at me Beachbum. Any person with half a brain WOULD listen to people talking about Christ and would seek and find him and become saved.

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Fastfalcon ]

Falcon,
You are new to this forum, and for that you're due a certain level of slack, but there is still one golden rule. BACK UP YOUR STATEMENTS. As in:
Prove God exists
Prove God is Great
Explain why homosexuality is wrong

And here's a question about finding Jesus. If we, as rational people do not believe in Jesus, how do you suggest we start. Is there a conversion class, or is there some kind of jesus pill we should take that will brainwash us and remove us from reason and logic? I'm not asking because I honsetly believe in such nonsense, I've just always had a problem with theists who argue that "all it takes is a little searching." As if everyone else is just born with it, except us atheists, therefore we need to listen to Christians so that we can finally be hit with the Jesus ball or something. Why weren't we born with it?

BibleBelted · 05-10-2002, 12:09 PM

Not so fast there, FastFalcon.

I believe these are the Ten Commandments. If you are going to quote the bible to us, please read the whole thing.

I included a bit of fluff at the beginning because I know how we all enjoy hearing god telling us how cool he is.

EXODUS 34

5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

<moving ahead>

10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

<they start here>

ONE
12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

TWO
17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

THREE
18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

FOUR
19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

FIVE
21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

SIX
22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

SEVEN
23 Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.
24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

EIGHT
25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

NINE
26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.

TEN
Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments

Edited to add: Damn you, Rational Ag. Beat me to it!

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: BibleBelted ]

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: BibleBelted ]

free12thinker · 05-10-2002, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wide-eyed wanderer:


And I would add:

"What do I need to be saved FROM, exactly?"

Death is not something I care to be saved from, btw. I admire and follow a bit of Marcus Aurelius' advice: "Do not despise death, but be well content with it."

And I agree with Steven Pinker and others who work in mind/brain research that the human mind/"soul"/personal existence is not more than a property of the living physical body existing in nature and typically in society.

And I see no reason to disagree with Epicurus that death "is nothing to us, since while we exist, death is not present, and whenever death is present, we do not exist."

So, if a person does not fear or despise death, but accepts it as entirely natural and as the painless termination of one's existence, what exactly does accepting Jesus as a resurrected godman/great teacher/cosmic uber-friend save one from (besides Christian evangelists) - that absolutely no other religion saves one from?

I do not find that Christianity offers salvation from anything that one really needs saving from. Christian salvation is irrelevant to your life and to your death. If Christianity makes you feel better... that doesn't mean that anyone else needs to feel better in the same way you do.

-Wanderer

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: wide-eyed wanderer ]

And if we are not saved, than we are cast away to hell, to burn forever, right?

But why?

Is god really that arrogant that he would torture someone, just because they didn't find him and get saved? Is it our faults that we don't find him? Are we just being rebellious? Or is the whole idea of punishment for not following the concept of god, really just a way of keeping us in check, that was set-up by men who wanted to remain in power and put fear into peoples hearts by penning tales of fire and water-walkers and the like?

Don't answer that. I know it's the last answer. I was really just venting. I am constantly amazed at how gullible some of my fellow earthlings really are.

Viti · 05-10-2002, 12:25 PM

Where in the New Testament is homosexuality condemned? If we are to throw away all the old laws, then we need to know where to find the new ones.

Godless Sodomite · 05-10-2002, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by free12thinker:


And if we are not saved, than we are cast away to hell, to burn forever, right?

Somebody call Dubya and suggest that rather than deal with Arabs for oil, or drill for new oil domestically (or worry about nuclear waste), he should have congress pass a law requiring Jesus to allow American industry to burn damned souls as a fossil fuel alternative. Satan saves space in hell, I can drive to work everyday, and Jesus tortures most of humanity for eternity--everybody wins (except the guilty, of course, who deserve all they get from their just and merciful god). Unlike fossil fuels, there will never be any shortage of hell bound souls, so all of our energy problems are solved. Now we can concentrate on what's really important in life, like giving all of our tax money to xian churches for education in creationism!

-Jerry

Atticus_Finch · 05-10-2002, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea:
Where in the New Testament is homosexuality condemned? If we are to throw away all the old laws, then we need to know where to find the new ones.

Romans 1:26-27

1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, 1:27 and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Regards,

Finch

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Atticus_Finch ]

Viti · 05-10-2002, 12:42 PM

Thanks Atticus....what does this part mean?

1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions.

Anunnaki · 05-10-2002, 12:46 PM

Quote:

This is nice and moronic. I know it's the latest fundy fad though to believe that we're all tainted by A&E's sins. That way nobody can be redemed without Microsoft's own patch for the programming error that it created. That's always clever. Create a faulty product in a market in which you have a monopoly. Then sell a fix to the problem. Then everybody has to buy the patch.

This is exactly what I was thinking about lastnight. I was also wondering why the word "gospel" means "good news". Shouldn`t it be "good AND bad news".

The bad news news is that god says your a hideous piece of shit.
The good news is that god can help you as long as you believe he murdered his son on a crucifix.

This is quite possibly the most ridiculous and disgusting idea man has ever come up with to explain his own existance.

And why is Jesus "gods only son"? I thought we were all gods children?

David Bowden · 05-10-2002, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus_Finch:
Romans 1:26-27

1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, 1:27 and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Dishonorable? That's only his opinion; Paul cites no authority. There is nothing to support his stance on homosexual lovemaking except the social mores common to some people during Late Antiquity.

Unnatural? Only in a Darwinian sense. Candy bars are unnatural. An appendectomy is unnatural, and so is a court of law. People are free to enjoy any human innovations at their discretion, unless good reasons are given for abstaining. Paul's opinion on this matter is insufficient.

Shameless? There need be no shame attached to voluntarily participating in such a human activity.

Penalty? Bah. I'm still waiting for a Christian response to my "saved from what" post above.

-Wanderer

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: wide-eyed wanderer ]

Atticus_Finch · 05-10-2002, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea:
Thanks Atticus....what does this part mean?

1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions.

If you read the context of Romans 1 it explains. Paul explains,

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.

1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, 1:27 and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women48 and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done. 1:29 They are filled with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice. They are rife with envy, murder, strife, deceit, hostility. They are gossips, 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, contrivers of all sorts of evil, disobedient to parents, 1:31 senseless, covenant-breakers, heartless, ruthless. 1:32 Although they fully know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but also approve of those who practice them.

I think what Paul is saying that if you look for God he can be found but that people usually refuses to see God. Because of that, God allowed them to sin and receive the consequences of their sin.

Romans is an excellent read. It summarizes Christian theology better than any other single book. I recommend it.

Regards,

Finch

05-10-2002, 12:09 PM	#42
BibleBelted Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Oklahoma, USA Posts: 891	Not so fast there, FastFalcon. I believe these are the Ten Commandments. If you are going to quote the bible to us, please read the whole thing. I included a bit of fluff at the beginning because I know how we all enjoy hearing god telling us how cool he is. EXODUS 34 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. <moving ahead> 10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee. 11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite. <they start here> ONE 12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: 13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: 14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: 15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; 16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods. TWO 17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods. THREE 18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt. FOUR 19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male. 20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty. FIVE 21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest. SIX 22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end. SEVEN 23 Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel. 24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year. EIGHT 25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning. NINE 26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. TEN Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk. 27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. 28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments Edited to add: Damn you, Rational Ag. Beat me to it! [ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: BibleBelted ] [ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: BibleBelted ]</p>

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05-10-2002, 12:25 PM	#44
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Where in the New Testament is homosexuality condemned? If we are to throw away all the old laws, then we need to know where to find the new ones.

05-10-2002, 12:42 PM	#47
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Thanks Atticus....what does this part mean? 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions.

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