RufusAtticus

And as such, it ain't moving!!!!!!

seebs

Well, I seem to recall that church membership is up a bit over a hundred years ago, but I'm not sure whether that's progress made or progress unmade.

I have to say, Rufus, I agree with you wholeheartedly. If only the moderates were the ones
willing to force others to adhere to their beliefs, this would be a non-issue.

notMichaelJackson

Hello. Let me give you my opinions on Creationism. I am a theistic evolutionist, something of an extreme version of Old Earth Creationist but we reject the Genesis account historically and scientifically because it didn't happen. The two largest churches in the world- the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, follow theistic evolution, so it's not just something that a few people here and there came up with.

I believe that fundamentalists cannot let go of the Genesis account because it tells them that they are special creatures far superior to everything else. They cannot reject it because rejecting it would be rejecting the Bible. Most Creationists are uneducated and cannot interpret the Bible the way it was meant to be, so they just take it word for word. As for the educated Creationists, well, they are just unreasonable. I have much to say about Creationism and my views on fundamentalism, but I'll start a new thread one of these days about it.

Here's a link about "Creation Science" by Lenny Flank. He claims to be a reverend: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/</a> He best states the religous side of it in "Creationism is not just bad science, it's bad theology, as well."

Jobar

I would say this topic has, not drifted, but evolved.

We are pretty much in agreement (IMO) that creationism is so common in the US as a result of a combination of factors- historical, as in the lack of major religious warfare in our history; political, the attempt by certain elements of the Republican right wing to use fundamentalism to enhance their power at the expense of the Democrats; and statistical, due to the loud mouths in marginal positions. Insufficient education about biology and evolution at the elementary and high school levels means that one can reach adulthood without any real understanding of those.

This thread has advanced to the question of what to do about the situation; Rufus and I (among others) are trying to convince Starboy (and others) that opposing Christianity per se is an ineffective way to oppose creationism, which is a point of view being pushed only by certain right wing protestant sects and individuals.

Now, seeing as how both Rufus and I are mods on a by-and-large atheist forum, it's a bit silly to say that we don't think Christianity is outmoded, even harmful, in many ways. We do think that. What we are both clear on, though, is that Christianity is not equivalent to creationism. Seebs, Bubba, Rev. Joshua, Rufus' wife, and my own moderate Southern Baptist family members are not creationists! In the larger scheme of things- preventing rigid and unthinking religious dogma from damaging science, or trying to masquerade as science- many, indeed most, Christians should be recognized as our allies, either active or passive.

On a more intellectual level, when the subject is specifically theology, the lines of debate and disagreement form along the lines that Starboy draws. Politics, though, makes strange bedfellows- I am on the same side seebs is, when the topic is creationism, or church-state separation. (And I leave to others to ask Rufus about bedroom politics, and where the lines are drawn in that particular venue! )

seebs

Here's the thing.

Disagreements about what to teach in schools, or where the church/state line goes, are things on which "agree to disagree" doesn't work; we *have* to have a line somewhere, and we need to do our best to hash the issue out to find a result everyone's happy with.

Theology, we don't need to agree on. The world could happily continue for another two thousand years, and my great-great-great-great-great grandchildren may someday try to convince yours that the God thing is just plain silly. Fine by me. I value the diversity of opinion I see in the world, because it gives me something to challenge my beliefs with.

So, I think the *important* line to draw is the one of what actions we actually take in the world. Personal beliefs are just that - personal. I say that, the sooner we can get almost everyone to agree on that, the sooner we can eliminate the things that have made this such a sore spot, and all be a lot happier.

Starboy

Greetings,

Please excuse my long absence from this thread.

Where to draw the line is the crux of the matter, especially when it is being drawn on the backs of non-Christians. I see that many view me as alarmist, but I will continue to be alarmed as long as that line keeps creeping towards church and state and away from a secular society. Yes I agree, it is creeping slowly, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored. After all, the way you boil a lobster without it noticing is to put it in the pot when the water is cold and increase the heat slowly.

Starboy

seesaw

[QUOTE]Originally posted by seebs

Quote:

So, I think the *important* line to draw is the one of what actions we actually take in the world. Personal beliefs are just that - personal. I say that, the sooner we can get almost everyone to agree on that, the sooner we can eliminate the things that have made this such a sore spot, and all be a lot happier.

I agree completely.

seebs

I don't think we're creeping towards either; I think there's constant low-level flux, and most of it makes no difference at all.

Keep in mind, I can find just as many Christians who are worried about policies which appear to prohibit personal expressions of belief; their concerns are just as valid as yours, inasmuch as they reflect people being told what thoughts they may or may not express.

I think that, on the whole, the problem is getting better - but the fundamentalists on both sides are making it a lot harder than it needs to be.

abe smith

Because folks who a'n't too-bright love the *mysterious* because any fool can assert it w/o having to KNOW anything factual, nor to STUDY to learn anything.
Believing in the inexplicable/miraculous makes the ignorant equal with the informed; and whee! "OI'm as smot as YEW are!."

RufusAtticus

I know many people who believe in inexplicable/miraculous things exist. Yet I have never ever seen them explain an event that way.