Peter Kirby

Layman writes: Thanks for the new information.

No prob.

Layman writes: Thackeray's argument was twofold: 1) the "forefather Abraham reference"; and 2) stylistic similarities with one of Josephus' assistants.

Unfortunately, the latter argument is rather inaccessible to us without any details. Perhaps a classicist could help us out.

Layman writes: Any idea if the Greek translatd "forefather" is the same as the Christian parrallels you found?

Well, I could check the Greek of Josephus through the Niese edition hosted by Perseus and found the following:

Book 1, summary section zeta.
hopôs Habramos ho progonos hêmôn exelthôn ek tês Chaldaiôn gês katesche tên tote men Chananaian nun de Ioudaian legomenên.

The word used by the author of 1 Clement is "pathr," as noted. Perhaps the word "progonos" has a stronger sense of "ancestor" than the word "pathr"? I am not sure. Feyerabend defines "progonos" as "born before, elder; ancestor, forefather" and "pathr" as "father; forefather, ancestor; founder." On the face of it, these words are similar enough and may both have the sense of "forefather." I do not have access to the Greek of Theophilus and the others mentioned.

Layman writes: J. Carleton Paget's recent article concludes that the Table of Contents was not by Josephus, but very early -- lending support to Thackeray. However, I wasn't able to copy that part of the article (ran out of money -- 25 cents a copy!!!!) while at the library. I hope to get the rest of the article soon and see what the basis is for his conclusions. JCP, Some Observations on Josephus and Christianity 52.2 (2001).

I look forward to it.

best,
Peter Kirby

Geoff Hudson

Peter wrote:

Please explain why a scribe would have moved the passage from Ant. 18.3.3 to a place after John the Baptist while not making any connection to John in the Testimonium and while keeping the 'about this time' reference intact.
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Perhaps instead, the scribe moved part of a larger passage that was all about John from Ant 18.3.3, and then altered the bit that was left. He then had two deaths (Jesus's fabricated and John's real) for the price of one.

Geoff Hudson