Tricia

Although it was fun for awhile, Davey, you are just plain annoying. You can bugger off now, because I am going to attempt to talk to people who will answer intellectually. You hurt me really deeply earlier, but now I am immune to your rantings. Thanks for nothing.

To the rest: Here's where I am currently.

Tonight starts BYC (AKA VBS), and I have been thinking for awhile about whether or not I should go. Everytime I go, I am changed. Something happens to me spiritually.

I kind of want to go, because I want to hold on to the scrap of christianity I have left. Even it being so thin, I can't help but think it's salvageable. It would also make my life SOOOO much easier.

Then again, I don't want to. I don't want to sing the worship songs I know by heart but don't believe in my heart. I feel so evil for what I did yesterday at church: my friend (not Dajah) would've noticed if i wasn't singing the songs, but I really didn't want to. So when I sang, I sang past tense. EX. -

the real song

I'm trading my sorrows
I'm trading my shame
I'm laying them down
for the joy of the Lord

I sang

I traded my sorrows
I traded my shame
I laid them down
for the joy of the Lord

And, well, I did a long time ago.

Plus, Cort(my accountability partner who also knows) will be there, and I don't feel like facing her. She doesn't know that I'm furthur along to agnosticism than when I told her.

I think maybe I'm jynxed, because when I read the OT lately all I seem to be able to read is the stuff that has me doubting: murder, rape, famine, etc. I just don't feel like reading that book anymore.

And prayer. This subject's a doozy. I don't know if my words are going anywhere! If God loves me so much, why won't He answer me?

~Tricia

Eudaimonist

You're not jinxed, Tricia. All that stuff was always in there; you just didn't notice it before. You are now blessed with sight.

Hang in there. No one promised this would be easy, but you'll get through it, one way or another.

NOGO

I know what you mean. It is so contrary to what you would expect based on the selling job Christians engage in.

The one that I can't digest is this one.

1 Sam 15:2-
This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'

Note the reason for the massacre and then consider that this is 400 years after the fact. Revenge onto the children.

This is where the original attack took place for which the Amalekites are being punished.
Ex 17:8:16
... skipping over the actual attack ...
He said, "For hands were lifted up to the throne of the LORD. The LORD will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation."


Once you see this type of thing it sticks in your mind because it makes you doubt and doubt makes you feel guilty. But why should you feel guilty for just reading the "word of God"?

This is a mind game, Tricia. This is the way religion controls you. Many people never escape this mind control.

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

wildernesse

Tricia:

I don't know the answers to your questions--I wish I did so you could have some comfort. But my answers are not yours, nor should they be.

But you are not evil! Doubts are not evil! Learning and questioning are not evil! Think hard and do well, grow and imagine. Be honest with yourself. It's ok.


--tiba

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Tricia:
<strong>
Then again, I don't want to. I don't want to sing the worship songs I know by heart but don't believe in my heart.</strong>

Ironically perhaps, I like a lot of Christian music and sing it occasionally (I used to be in the choir). You won't believe the looks that coworkers used to give me when they heard me singing Jesus turned our sorrows into dancing.

Getting back to the point, I don't think it's evil to pretend to be something you are not for your own safety and assuming that you're not hurting someone else. If you were a Jew in Nazi-occupied France or Poland, it might be to your advantage to conceal the fact - ditto here. Through no fault of your own, the status quo has shifted to exclude you. It might be best to play along until you are safe.

<strong>
And prayer. This subject's a doozy. I don't know if my words are going anywhere! If God loves me so much, why won't He answer me?</strong>

Let me play god's advocate here for a moment and ask : what would you consider to be an answer?

Pseudonymph

Tricia...I want to ask you something: What is it that you are looking for? Would I be incorrect in guessing that there is something going on in your life that may be causing the strain on your faith?

Let me share something with you, if you don't mind.

I went though something very similar to what you are feeling now, a few months ago. I'm only a few years older than you so I think we may be on somewhat of the page here. After all my searching was complete and I had exhausted my soul, searching for answers to questions that other people, not I myself had asked, I suddenly realized that I was going about it all wrong...

You see, people hold God on this high pedestal, like he is "this" certain way and "that" certain way. Honestly I don't think christians have a clue any more than atheists do. Assuming God does exist, what would we know about him?

Hence my approach to things...many times, I "feel myself" talking to God, I can't explain it that well but....its not like closing my eyes and praying or singing a hymm or anything like that. It's the same as calling up an old friend who checks in on you from time to time, saying thanks.

I dunno, yeah it sounds stupid, but I think that when you take away the reverence...Mr. GOD type of approach, you can see things for more of what they really might mean to YOU, rather than from what other people tell you.


I think of God as a guide, someone who can point me in the right direction. Push me if necessary

But not someone who "sits at the right hand" etc....that stuff is man made, and of little use to me. Step back for awhile and think about what it is that you want. You're the only one who can find these things out...Good luck!

DMB

Tricia: a just god would not condemn you for your doubts.

Is there any possibility of going to talk to a minister at a more liberal, less fundie denomination? I feel that you could do with advice from an intelligent and tolerant xian.

Many people here have gone through what you are experiencing and have come through to a happy state of agnosticism or atheism. From where I stand, that would be a desirable outcome for you too. But while you still want to hang on to xianity, I feel it would be helpful for you to try talking to a professional who is not such a miserable failure in the role as your pastor.

HelenM

Yeah really

It's tricky because as far as many conservatives are concerned, liberals are worse than non-Christians because of their active attempts to deceive people away from 'the truth' by teaching 'heretical' forms of Christianity.

So, it's a huge step, to go talk to a liberal.

I think Tricia said she talked to her youth pastor. I expect that her church has other pastors too. Who knows whether they would handle her current crisis of faith better or not. I'd like to hope that they would, given how poorly the youth pastor did, but, being able to handle such things well doesn't seem to go hand in hand with being a pastor, as best I can tell.

In general, youth pastors are younger and less experienced than other pastors.

And in general, I find that older people do better at handling the crises of other people with sensitivity and grace and wisdom. But please note that I said, in general. I know there are exceptions.

love
Helen

Godless Dave

I don't have the stomach to read through this whole thread, so maybe I'm repeating someone else. Here goes anyway. Tricia, if you seriously want another Christian perspective I suggest talking to II members Rev. Joshua, Seebs, and HelenSL. They are all practicing Christians and have found a way to reconcile their faith with the nasty words and actions ascribed to God in the Bible. Mostly they do it by accepting that the Bible was written by people, and is not the literal word of God. I think they represent the majority of thinking Christians in this approach; unfortunately it seems to be a silent majority.

The kind of church you were raised in does Christianity a disservice by claiming you have to take the Bible literally to be a Christian. The idea that any book is the literal word of God is absurd, especially in light of years of biblical scholarship into when the parts of the bible were written, who wrote them, and what their target audience was.

Of course I think you would be better off to leave religion altogether. But I wouldn't want you to think that you only have a stark choice between the conservative biblical literalist Christianity you were raised with and atheism. The Christianity of your family and church is a relatively small fringe movement. There are lots of other ways to approach Christianiy, not to mention all the non-Christian religions that seek answers in their own way.

Tricia

Honestly, I don't know. I know what it wouln't be, however. I'm not expecting some kind of possession or something like that, say, 'I'll believe you are really there God if youu give me a million dollars.'

This God is supposed to be so, so big. He created the universe, heaven, and made a way for us to join him there. My point is, if He is so awesome, why do I have to think so much about what sign he might have already given me?

~Tricia