Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Boro Nut · 08-09-2002, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Black Moses:
<strong>Does Time Really Exist.</strong>

I think it must do, along with bananas. If time flies like the wind and fruit flies like bananas then both time and bananas must exist because flies do.

Albert Eisenstein had a more complex proof which went along the lines that you turn blue when you approach the sound of light but it has algebra in it so I would stick to the flies analogy if you want to stay on firmer ground.

Boro Nut

Mr. Sammi · 08-09-2002, 04:59 AM

What is a memory, asks He?
It is the accumulation and retention process of our universe said She.
We comprehend each other when the words accumulation and retention are used, asked She?
In the context replied He.
A memory is the same as the recording of an event she prompted.
Oh, he enquired? but what of continuous memories, or for that matter discrete memories, he ended eagerly and expectantly all at the same time.
It is the same, she declared, if an event is recorded discretely it becomes a discrete memory. Likewise if an event is recorded continuously it is a continuous memory, she ended triumphantly.
Ah, he conceded, I think I comprehend...

* * *

The rock is a representation of an event or a set of events which happened some time ago. There is the event of the becoming of the rock, and the events of the passing of the rock. The rock may show evidence on itself that it was used to knock someone over in the head - more past events associated with the rock. Our concern at this moment is not the passing of the rock, but the being of the rock. Predictions for the rock is an unnecessary bit of fluff at this moment.

For the rock to come into being, it must prove to existence it has the necessary qualifications to be part of existence, it must produce continuous proof of itself, in order for it to be recognisable as a rock by itself. This memory of itself which is a pre-condition for existence in our universe is observable in all mass.

* * *

Questions arising from this debate concerning what causes the pre-conditioning memories of existence is an exciting one, but can it be answered?

Sammi Na Boodie ()

atrahasis · 08-09-2002, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Sammi:
What is a memory, asks He?
It is the accumulation and retention process of our universe said She.
Begging the Question- or circularity- fallacy

A memory is the same as the recording of an event she prompted.
Equivocation or Ambiguity fallacy

It is the same, she declared, [i]if an event is recorded discretely it becomes a discrete memory.[i/]
Affirming the Consequent falacy "if an event is recorded discretely it becomes a discrete memory"

The rock is a representation of an event or a set of events which happened some time ago.
False Dilemma

* * *

Questions arising from this debate concerning what causes the pre-conditioning memories of existence is an exciting one, but can it be answered?
It all depends on how you view it!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now lets go back to what we were talking about "Time"

Mr. Sammi · 08-09-2002, 08:39 AM

Who are you talking to when you say, let's get back to the question of time? Are you trying to insinuate that you have decided the way of the world all by your lonesome self?

By denying you know absolutely nothing about accumulation and retention, you group yourself with the herd of false criers. You fail to see the approaching limit of what is the process of memory.

You may wish to deny all reason, you may wish to deny all interpretations of the communication process, that may be your way, however your counter evidence does not weigh in with the intentions I believe your statements were supposed to communicate.

You should try again, this time a little more intelligently. Haplessly, how can you philosophically argue against a position of memory, when you yourself have no clue of memory, or have no clue about what I am speaking. You seem to argue from a priviledged position, without fully questioning the purpose of my stated position. To me this reeks as a form of intellectual debasement, which leads me to think you are a false-black-moses. As it is said on the weakest link - goodbye.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

atrahasis · 08-10-2002, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Sammi:
<strong>Who are you talking to when you say, let's get back to the question of time? Are you trying to insinuate that you have decided the way of the world all by your lonesome self?

By denying you know absolutely nothing about accumulation and retention, you group yourself with the herd of false criers. You fail to see the approaching limit of what is the process of memory.

You may wish to deny all reason, you may wish to deny all interpretations of the communication process, that may be your way, however your counter evidence does not weigh in with the intentions I believe your statements were supposed to communicate.

You should try again, this time a little more intelligently. Haplessly, how can you philosophically argue against a position of memory, when you yourself have no clue of memory, or have no clue about what I am speaking. You seem to argue from a priviledged position, without fully questioning the purpose of my stated position. To me this reeks as a form of intellectual debasement, which leads me to think you are a false-black-moses. As it is said on the weakest link - goodbye.

Sammi Na Boodie ()</strong>

Mr sammi since you have decided to use emotions, lemi just make it clear, What i was saying is that lets not forget what this thread is all about, We are talking about "time"

Lastly this leads me to think that you are a false-sammi!!! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

popeontheropes · 08-10-2002, 07:54 AM

hello , i am no scientist , by any means, however this is a subject i have often pondered in the lonely ,endless hours of my life in which i have had nothing better to do. Time= 0 is as close as you can get to the truth with a linear perspective..or any perspective ,really. you see , time is purly subjective in it's existance and it's effect. tree's , to us , do not move or communicate as far as we can tell. now , imagine if you will, that a tree does mark time with a similar perspective to our own. it goes about it's day doinfg what it does. now along comes a human.. assuming that the trees perspective on time is similar to ours relative to it's own rate of speed..do you think that tree can even SEE you ? you would be moving so insanely fast according to the tree's perspective, that it probably doesn't even know you exist at all.
and a mosquito, assuming it percieves it's life time to be 70 of it's years , and passing ,to it , as our years pass to us...we would be the mosquito's tree.
it is all a matter of perspective when you are thinking in terms of time as a linear concept.
if you then go ahead and concider time as nonexistant then there is no single point where the past becomes the past and the future becomes the future . there is only now but not even that really due to the fact that the concept of now is relative to the past and the future . in equasion form you could express now as f - p = n.
but these variables are ultimately undefinable
in the linear sense.
i would say try to get your head around your place in the universe as you being unbound by linear existance..existing only where and when you wish. time would then take on an all encompassing sphere around you .and so freed would you then not be able to exist at any single point with in that sphere.
as far as the universal big bang theory goes..we are so infinitesimally small in comparison to it, and , having absolutly no chance of ever reaching it's outer limits or ,"edge", if you will,that starting the clock at " 0 " is absurd. our big bang could have been ba-zillionth of it's kind in a "universe" we can't begin to imagine much less define.

Mr. Sammi · 08-11-2002, 09:09 AM

Black Moses,

It must be intentional that I submit my apologies on the matter of myself and my emotional outbursts.

All interested,

There has been claims in this thread that it takes memory to experience time. I have been trying to show that memory is already associated with time. The past, our past is only a huge expansive memory, remnants of events which have already started, or have occurred. I do not doubt that continuous memories are a great aid in fully experiencing the impact of time, but I doubt that memory is necessary in order to have an experience.

The accumulative and retentive elements of memory are everywhere. The solar system is a memory of a set of events which happened some time ago. We will find that some of these memories continue to be valid over the continuity of existence. Trees are living memories of themselves, so are humans, so are animals. Rocks and such like items are discrete memories of themselves enmeshed in continuity.

* * *

Getting back to time with the claim that what exists is NOW, the present moment, which has breadth and density. The past is memories accumulated through interaction with NOWtime. The future is nothing but a plan, which comes into reality through the impending possibilities influenced through NOWtime.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

atrahasis · 08-13-2002, 02:39 AM

I came to one conclusion, i dont know whether im right:

Time exists because we say it does, Our synapses in our brains make it exist; Our brains needs "time" to make memories. We need memories to make sense of the ordering of casuality. But if its possible to "go out" of our selfselves. Time will cease to exist.

Most of the posts in this thread sort of "tie" change to time. My question is, What contribution does time make to a change? or rather can a change occur without time? Was there a change before the big bang? i.e did the the big bang also occur in time? If it did then, time is not a product of "our" universe.

Thanks guys.

especially

Mr Sammi

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08-09-2002, 04:59 AM	#92
Mr. Sammi Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montr�al Posts: 367	What is a memory, asks He? It is the accumulation and retention process of our universe said She. We comprehend each other when the words accumulation and retention are used, asked She? In the context replied He. A memory is the same as the recording of an event she prompted. Oh, he enquired? but what of continuous memories, or for that matter discrete memories, he ended eagerly and expectantly all at the same time. It is the same, she declared, if an event is recorded discretely it becomes a discrete memory. Likewise if an event is recorded continuously it is a continuous memory, she ended triumphantly. Ah, he conceded, I think I comprehend... * * * The rock is a representation of an event or a set of events which happened some time ago. There is the event of the becoming of the rock, and the events of the passing of the rock. The rock may show evidence on itself that it was used to knock someone over in the head - more past events associated with the rock. Our concern at this moment is not the passing of the rock, but the being of the rock. Predictions for the rock is an unnecessary bit of fluff at this moment. For the rock to come into being, it must prove to existence it has the necessary qualifications to be part of existence, it must produce continuous proof of itself, in order for it to be recognisable as a rock by itself. This memory of itself which is a pre-condition for existence in our universe is observable in all mass. * * * Questions arising from this debate concerning what causes the pre-conditioning memories of existence is an exciting one, but can it be answered? Sammi Na Boodie ()

08-09-2002, 06:59 AM	#93
atrahasis Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South of Sahara Posts: 216	*Originally posted by Mr. Sammi:* What is a memory, asks He? It is the accumulation and retention process of our universe said She. Begging the Question- or circularity- fallacy A memory is the same as the recording of an event she prompted. Equivocation or Ambiguity fallacy It is the same, she declared, [i]if an event is recorded discretely it becomes a discrete memory.[i/] Affirming the Consequent falacy "if an event is recorded discretely it becomes a discrete memory" *The rock is a representation of an event* or a set of events which happened some time ago.** False Dilemma * * * Questions arising from this debate concerning what causes the pre-conditioning memories of existence is an exciting one, but can it be answered? It all depends on how you view it!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Now lets go back to what we were talking about "Time"

08-09-2002, 08:39 AM	#94
Mr. Sammi Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montr�al Posts: 367	Who are you talking to when you say, let's get back to the question of time? Are you trying to insinuate that you have decided the way of the world all by your lonesome self? By denying you know absolutely nothing about accumulation and retention, you group yourself with the herd of false criers. You fail to see the approaching limit of what is the process of memory. You may wish to deny all reason, you may wish to deny all interpretations of the communication process, that may be your way, however your counter evidence does not weigh in with the intentions I believe your statements were supposed to communicate. You should try again, this time a little more intelligently. Haplessly, how can you philosophically argue against a position of memory, when you yourself have no clue of memory, or have no clue about what I am speaking. You seem to argue from a priviledged position, without fully questioning the purpose of my stated position. To me this reeks as a form of intellectual debasement, which leads me to think you are a false-black-moses. As it is said on the weakest link - goodbye. Sammi Na Boodie ()

08-10-2002, 07:54 AM	#96
popeontheropes Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: a rutt Posts: 24	hello , i am no scientist , by any means, however this is a subject i have often pondered in the lonely ,endless hours of my life in which i have had nothing better to do. Time= 0 is as close as you can get to the truth with a linear perspective..or any perspective ,really. you see , time is purly subjective in it's existance and it's effect. tree's , to us , do not move or communicate as far as we can tell. now , imagine if you will, that a tree does mark time with a similar perspective to our own. it goes about it's day doinfg what it does. now along comes a human.. assuming that the trees perspective on time is similar to ours relative to it's own rate of speed..do you think that tree can even SEE you ? you would be moving so insanely fast according to the tree's perspective, that it probably doesn't even know you exist at all. and a mosquito, assuming it percieves it's life time to be 70 of it's years , and passing ,to it , as our years pass to us...we would be the mosquito's tree. it is all a matter of perspective when you are thinking in terms of time as a linear concept. if you then go ahead and concider time as nonexistant then there is no single point where the past becomes the past and the future becomes the future . there is only now but not even that really due to the fact that the concept of now is relative to the past and the future . in equasion form you could express now as f - p = n. but these variables are ultimately undefinable in the linear sense. i would say try to get your head around your place in the universe as you being unbound by linear existance..existing only where and when you wish. time would then take on an all encompassing sphere around you .and so freed would you then not be able to exist at any single point with in that sphere. as far as the universal big bang theory goes..we are so infinitesimally small in comparison to it, and , having absolutly no chance of ever reaching it's outer limits or ,"edge", if you will,that starting the clock at " 0 " is absurd. our big bang could have been ba-zillionth of it's kind in a "universe" we can't begin to imagine much less define.

08-11-2002, 09:09 AM	#97
Mr. Sammi Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montr�al Posts: 367	Black Moses, It must be intentional that I submit my apologies on the matter of myself and my emotional outbursts. All interested, There has been claims in this thread that it takes memory to experience time. I have been trying to show that memory is already associated with time. The past, our past is only a huge expansive memory, remnants of events which have already started, or have occurred. I do not doubt that continuous memories are a great aid in fully experiencing the impact of time, but I doubt that memory is necessary in order to have an experience. The accumulative and retentive elements of memory are everywhere. The solar system is a memory of a set of events which happened some time ago. We will find that some of these memories continue to be valid over the continuity of existence. Trees are living memories of themselves, so are humans, so are animals. Rocks and such like items are discrete memories of themselves enmeshed in continuity. * * * Getting back to time with the claim that what exists is NOW, the present moment, which has breadth and density. The past is memories accumulated through interaction with NOWtime. The future is nothing but a plan, which comes into reality through the impending possibilities influenced through NOWtime. Sammi Na Boodie ()

08-13-2002, 02:39 AM	#98
atrahasis Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South of Sahara Posts: 216	I came to one conclusion, i dont know whether im right: Time exists because we say it does, Our synapses in our brains make it exist; Our brains needs "time" to make memories. We need memories to make sense of the ordering of casuality. But if its possible to "go out" of our selfselves. Time will cease to exist. Most of the posts in this thread sort of "tie" change to time. My question is, What contribution does time make to a change? or rather can a change occur without time? Was there a change before the big bang? i.e did the the big bang also occur in time? If it did then, time is not a product of "our" universe. Thanks guys. especially Mr Sammi

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