Amie

Outside of the natural world as we know it.

skeptics...you just gotta love em

Amie

Mageth and Gerald I wish you two would have tagged along when they made The Blair Witch project. That would have been comedy at best

Infinity Lover

It's not so much that I don't have a believe in the afterlife. I just don't deem the existence of one of any relevance to how I look at the world, or how I lead my life. And there's little point in busting my skull over it. It's either something I'll just have to make the best of, same as life, or it's oblivion, which couldn't possibly be disappointing.

That doesn't mean I'm agnostic. I'm not thinking it's something that maybe exists. I'm thinking, "what's the point of thinking about it?"

The same goes with ghosts. I have no firm reason to assume they exist. But what's to gain from saying they don't exist? I'm perfectly secure about keeping an open mind. I'll draw conclusions, when I have something to draw conclusions on.

If the choice of registering equipment is a matter of trial and error, then there would have been past registrations involved. I'm not educated enough there, to go with real, or fraud. Though I'm sure there's a lot of doctored material out there. Photographs that have been exposed twice and such.

I must say I'm kinda intrigued by that American medium; Char. She's visiting the Netherlands at the moment. If I had a talk with her, I'd be skeptical, but at the same time prepared to be baffled.

Seraphim

"Cool. Would you mind telling us about the ghosts you have seen? How did you know they were waiting for their time to go? Where were they waiting to go? Did you ask? Did they answer? What did they look like? Where did you see them? "

My reply : Well ... not a tough question but it has a lenght explaination.

1st experience (which lasted more than a minute) was when I was about 12 years old. It was noon and I was playing in a field (I came from rural area) with my elder brother and few friends.

My head went cloudy all the sudden (like faint but still remember standing still). I looked up and saw the strangest thing ever. 4 men - ALL red (from top of their hair to their toes, even the dress they wore) ran past me in a very slow motion way - like time was slowing down.

This "men" were carrying one of those carriage the Chinese uses in the old days (known as Tanglung in my country), which has two poles on both side and carried by this four on their shoulders. This "tanglung" is also red and whole creep seen is red except for the surroundings.

They just ran past in front of me and I stood there like a dummy watching it. My friends told me later that I stood there for a couple of minutes flat without moving, staring at the road like a zombie. Later that day, I heard that someone in my village (a old Chinese man) died in his house early (he was sick).

And it wasn't till much later that I found out that there is a myth in Chinese custom stating that the soul of the departed is carried off by four "men" on a tanglung to face judgement in Hell. Forgot the name of this "men". So to make long story short, I just witnessed someone been died and been carried off by "Death".

This is one of few experience I had in the last 20 years or so. Others are usual less than a minute experience. Like seeing "someone" walking or standing a few feets away from my desk or chair and looking at me (when I look toward it, it dissappears), or someone standing behind me when I wash my face and sees a "shadow" next to me, or hearing whisper of my name been called in an empty office room. This happens in weekly bases.

And Yes, You may consider me Nuts if you want.

By Mageth

My Qoute : Nope, don't know any stories.
"A bit odd, since you claim to have seen some. "

My reply : I was referring to stories as in fairy tales, not real-life experiences. Ghost stories never my favorite topics, despite of my experiences, maybe because in those stories, they usually add things to scare people more.

Amie

When I asked the question...thats what I meant
I should have said so...

Seraphim I don't think you're a Nut. I myself have never seen a ghost, but I am intrigued by the stories of others who have seen them...

Amie~

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Amie ]</p>

Infinity Lover

Seraphim?

For the sake of argument playfully going along with your story (not to mock you in any way)...

...would people in other countries witness the same display? Even though that legend is a regional one?
Or would it appear different elsewhere. Death adjusting it's customs to local cultures? How would that work you think?

Seraphim

"When I asked the question...thats what I meant
I should have said so...
Seraphim I don't think you're a Nut. I myself have never seen a ghost, but I am intrigued by the stories of others who have seen them..."

My reply : Thanks. I didn't think myself as Nuts as well, but the last person I described my Out of my body experiences (got a few), he (or she)recommended a good head shrink

By Infinity Lover

"Seraphim?
For the sake of argument playfully going along with your story (not to mock you in any way)...

...would people in other countries witness the same display? Even though that legend is a regional one?
Or would it appear different elsewhere. Death adjusting it's customs to local cultures? How would that work you think? "

My reply : Good question. To answer this question, I must ask first this question - Who is covering for who?

In Chinese customs, they said that the soul be carried off in a carriage right? Is this senario of death adjusted itself to our point of view of how things should happen or did our (or in this case, the Chinese) simply adjusted itself based on what they "saw"?

You should know that people who can see this sort of things (ghost and supernatural things with their eyes) are called with various names - "Demon Eyes", "Yin Eyes" or simply "Cat Eyes". They are very rare among Chinese and greatly respected. In Europe however, you may find plenty of example in history of this sort of people getting roasted alive .

Now ... ehem ... returning back to the topic at hand, this sort of people (this with Demon, Yin or Cat eyes) could have seen what they saw and told others who cannot see or created methods to please the departing soul so they could leave in peace. All this "methods" slowly evolved into what we know as custom. So from that point of view, it is not Death who is playing by our rules, it is we who are adjusting to it.

echidna

Well one can choose between Parapsychology or the more widely accepted field of Psychiatry (and Neurology as well) which often associates visions / hallucinations & voices with various forms of schizophrenia. Given the choice of deciding whether ghosts, religious apparitions, miracles, divine revelations are real or imagined, there is precious little evidence for the objective reality of any of these visions. As such many historic claimants of voices and visions (Jean d’Arc, Vincent van Gogh for instance & half the characters of the Old Testament for that matter) are often thought to have been schizophrenic.

Likely the visions are very real for the individual, but for the rest of us they seem quite delusional. So is schizophrenia simply the psychiatrist’s way of describing someone who is able to see ghosts ? Maybe. Mistaken might be another option.

But when the old homeless man is talking to nobody & swatting at nothing, who am I to label his world delusional ?

Seraphim

"Well one can choose between Parapsychology or the more widely accepted field of Psychiatry (and Neurology as well) which often associates visions / hallucinations & voices with various forms of schizophrenia. Given the choice of deciding whether ghosts, religious apparitions, miracles, divine revelations are real or imagined, there is precious little evidence for the objective reality of any of these visions. As such many historic claimants of voices and visions (Jean d’Arc, Vincent van Gogh for instance & half the characters of the Old Testament for that matter) are often thought to have been schizophrenic. "

My reply : If you say chemical imbalance or pressure or some kind of stress is what cause all this to occur, then that is your opinion which I respect. However, to a carefree kid such as myself, such "causes" can't just fit the bill properly.

"Likely the visions are very real for the individual, but for the rest of us they seem quite delusional. So is schizophrenia simply the psychiatrist’s way of describing someone who is able to see ghosts ? Maybe. Mistaken might be another option. "

My reply : Do you think that people who is labelled as Cat Eyes, Demon Eyes or Yin Eyes are people who are mentally disordered and should be treated?

I won't be surprise however if the answer is Yes since such person are considered heretics - both by religion or science alike.

Funny thing is, a lot of us blame God and Religion for prosecuting such people, but in return, science is doing the same thing by locking people up and pumping them with drugs and medicine all because they see different things.

I wonder if talking and helping people with such "images" to adjust to themselves is a proper way to approach this problem rather than medicine and drugs.

I wonder also how many youngsters in society nowadays grow up being afraid to be called a freak (another word for heretic, except it was given by science rather than religion) because of things he or she saw, heard or felt. As for me, I know what I saw and I don't need medicine for that. My sensors is one that is unique and that makes me a unique person, and it is nothing that I wish to hide nor feel ashamed of.

echidna

Actually science is only attempting to describe a single objective reality which is appropriate to us all. Whenever an individual presents a subjective case differing from that scientific model, without objective proof, the model must remain firm.

Fear of the unknown used to cause the automatic institutionalisation of mental illness. I’d like to think that recent decades are seeing a new enlightenment towards this thinking. Intolerance of difference is closely tied to tribalism & is another innate part of the human psyche.

OTOH, religion’s relationship with mental illness has been quite diverse. On occasion burning victims as witches, on other occasions sanctifying them as visionaries or sharmen. Indeed altered states of consciousness feature heavily in many animistic religions.

All science does is describe the physical mechanisms by which these phenomena occur. Problems only occur when people need to decide what is actually right or not, whether an individual actually needs to be treated or not.

Speaking from the Australian context, really treatment depends largely on how well the individual can function in society. Harmless schizonphrenics are definitely in the majority. Some voluntarily undertake treatment, many choose not to. As long as their behaviour remains purely eccentric rather than directly harmful, they generally seem to be accepted here. Not necessarily with open arms (there is naturally an inherent fear of behaviour which we do not understand), but there is generally minimal coercion to force them into treatment as compared with 2 or 3 decades ago where institutionalisation was the unfortunate norm. Unfortunately a small proportion of schizophrenics are considered violent & as such there seems little choice but to retain these individuals in institutions.

My association of visions with schizophrenia comes in an open & honest discussion over the “true” nature of reality. If one person is to assert to me the objective existence of ghosts because of personal experience, then the next will tell me to become a Catholic because the Holy Mother told them to, and the one after will tell me that the aliens who abducted him are going to blow up the world next Friday.