Theli

Interesting topic, though.
But I don't agree with the claim that just because we don't believe in god, the cross has no meaning to us. I mean, it represents alot more than the christian god and Jesus' crucifixion.

dangin

Yeah if you shorten the long side it means plus. +

Toto

What else does it mean? Various crosses were used a symbols before the Christian era, but currently the Christians own the trademark on the cross, so to speak. When you see a cross, you have to think Christian and all that implies.

Dune

Apology to all for my horrible spelling....
:notworthy

Buffman

Theli

Thank you for the impetus to do a little Swedish historical research. It would seem that one goal of Christianity is to "crush" the pagans/heathens if they can not be "converted." Unfortunately, to some overly zealous Christians, anyone who does not worship exactly as they do are instantly labeled "Pagans/Heathens/ Infidels," and those are the nicer labels.

http://www.skolinternet.telia.se/TIS...exteng/swe.htm

(Extract)
Christianity and the Old Gods

After the death of king Edmund Slemmethe throne was won by Stenkil, a pious Christian man who came from Western Sweden. Stenkil fought several campaigns against the dynamic Norwegian king Harald Hardradi but with no greater success. Apparently, according to the Norwegian chronicle called Morkinskinna, Stenkil was an enormously fat man and a heavy drinker. He died in A.D 1066. Now something peculiar happens in Sweden. Whilst Norway and Denmark quickly embraced Christianity Sweden seems to go the opposite way. After the death of Stenkil heathendom came to witness an overwhelming comeback. Stenkils son Inge is slain in Uppsala when he refuses to sacrifice to the gods. The period after Stenkils death is one of great confusion and there are several kings, some Christian and some heathen. This conflict continues until Filip Hallstensson becomes king in the beginning of the twelfth century. Sweden was the last country heathendom worked as a strong and powerful religion. The religious practice, although rigorously pursued by the Christian kings, did not cease until the end of the twelfth century.
(End extract)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It would seem that The Order of the Seraphim is based on the victory of Christianity rather than that of reason...until just a few short years ago.


http://www.sweden.se/templates/FactSheet____2863.asp

http://www.pinette.net/chris/flags/royal/se-royal.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13725b.htm

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/009/15.22.html

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dune

In an attempt to bring this interesting cauldron to a boil, do you feel that the American government should be guiding its actions based on a supernatural belief system or on the critical analysis of the verifiable evidence...or some other system of operation...perhaps even a ratified Constitution?

Too accommodate supernatural beliefs simply because they have been around for many centuries and are currently the most prevalent majority belief system, does little more than promote that belief through silence. IMHO, it merely tolerates intolerance and a lack of critical thinking skills concerning the human senses- brain-mind interface.

Dune

::scratches head:: Um, I'm not sure if I understand what you are driving at...
Are you saying that by the government allowing a display of two pieces of wood nailed together on public ground they are basing the entire governmental structure on Christianity?

Otherwise- if you are simply asking for my preference for governmental structure: I like "ye olde" Constitutional representative Republic.

(Barring of course, world domination by myself : cool: )

Buffman

Dune

I sincerely hope you will not take offense with my comment following yours:

Um, I'm not sure if I understand what you are driving at...
Are you saying that by the government allowing a display of two pieces of wood nailed together on public ground they are basing the entire governmental structure on Christianity?

I recommend that you spend some time reading through the issues that have been discussed in this specific forum. It would appear that you have just begun to be exposed to what has really been going on for the last 20+ years in this country.

However, to provide you with a direct answer to your question...it is "yes", our government is attempting to base its structure (centralized power) on the Judeo-Christian Bible writings. And my practical answer is also "yes." I refuse to have my tax dollars be used to help promote any form of superstitious, faith belief, worship in the supernatural whether with sticks of wood or nails of iron. Now, why don't you give some thought to the School Voucher System, The U.S.Pariot Act of 2001, the U,S Rep. Ernest J, Istook "Pledge and Prayer" Amendment, the "Faith Based" give-away programs, or some of the other meaningful issues discussed at:

http://www.au.org/

or at:

http://www.interfaithalliance.org/Issues/IssuesMain.cfm

Dune

no offense taken. I am not advocating any ideology here, but attempting to gather some opinions.

So by simply allowing a group to display an item on public ground (including such things as streets, parks and basically everything not privately owned) it is promoting that ideology?
This question isn’t specifically about christianity, either. It is about symbols of religion in general.
By your statements, you would be fine with another group- say Buddhists- to display symbology; as long as its not Christians since xtians are attempting to hijack the government structure into a Judeo-Christian model?

Although- it the replies so far have provided some sort of answer-
that religion (specifically christianity) is so dangerous to our way of life that any percieved support of it from our leadership needs to be stamped out lest it take over.

Steve K

I think the reason that the push by fundamentalists toward a Judeo-Christian structure has become apparent is until recently (60s) Christianity was mainly the only outward religion people had. Sure, a lot of people didn't go to church, but like homosexuals, it wasn't something you admitted to (disclaimer: I wasn't there, it just seems like that is the impression that I get).

Also, fundamentalism wasn't a big force back then. When did it start? The 20s? Something like that.

So, when other religions started to creep in openly, and people started openly professing atheism, fundamentalists freaked out and started a reactionary push.

The government has held a Judeo-Christian foundation since its inception. However, only recently has there been any open conflict regarding that base and so, as non-Christians push, fundamentalists push back.

So, in conclusion, I have no idea what I'm talking about, nor even what my point was going to be.

- Steve

Buffman

Dune

no offense taken. I am not advocating any ideology here, but attempting to gather some opinions.

Not a problem here. I see you as a Devil's Advocate attempting to push at the edges of people's preceptions in order to gain a greater insight into your own positions on the various issues.

So by simply allowing a group to display an item on public ground (including such things as streets, parks and basically everything not privately owned) it is promoting that ideology?


Might I suggest that you consider the differences between state sponsored/promoted public religious activities and state tolerated private or public religious activities. I am primarily concerned about the differences between governmental sponsorship and neutrality. Regarding your question about what constitutes promoting a religious ideology, we enter a very difficult and often contradictory area of accurate definitions. What is too much religion? What is not enough? I have personal views. So do others. However, my contention is that the government is constitutionally forbidden to take sides....even though it has been taking sides throughout our entire history. The federal court system has been the primary arm of government that has determined what does, or could, constitute the tyranny of the religious majority in violation of our constitutional protections which lionizes the individual expression of conscience.

This question isnt specifically about christianity, either. It is about symbols of religion in general.
By your statements, you would be fine with another group- say Buddhists- to display symbology; as long as its not Christians since xtians are attempting to hijack the government structure into a Judeo-Christian model?

That is not "my" intent. I merely wish to separate Religion and Government. God and Caesar. Church and State. I have no desire to separate ethical behavior from the government. I do have a desire to make it perfectly clear that no one religious or non-religious faith belief has the only right/ethical/moral/accurate values/codes/laws by which a government should operate on behalf of the people it professes to represent.

Although- it the replies so far have provided some sort of answer- that religion (specifically christianity) is so dangerous to our way of life that any perceived support of it from our leadership needs to be stamped out lest it take over.

That is not my position. Try expanding your vision beyond our shores and our times. How did the Taliban take-over in Muslim Afghanistan? How did the Communists take-over in Christian Orthodox Russia? How does religious faith belief figure into Israeli immigration law? (These are merely a few of the questions you should be asking yourself if you wish to understand from whence my thoughts originate.

http://www.adherents.com/

(Extract)
New Barna Poll shows wide diversity in levels of religious activity among different denominations New edition of World Christian Encyclopedia published: tabulating 10,000 distinct religious groups, including 33,830 Christian denominations
(End extract)

What I'm attempting to say is that one, or a small handful, of mutually supportive Christian denominations have taken over control of the U.S.Government by cleverly manipulating public opinion via a brilliant propaganda crusade and a highly skilled and financed campaign of political and economic machination. This did not happen over-night. The current success story began back in the late 70's and early 80's.