Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 02-08-2002, 02:33 PM

...you can't have the value system without its creator.

Why not?

There are lots of "value systems" in the world, posessed by many people, of which there are no "creators" (other than the societies in which they were created.)

Note that most if not all of the xian "values" are not original to xianity.

phlebas · 02-08-2002, 02:35 PM

1) unconditional love

Does he not have that from you anymore?

2) people who would be willing to die for him if worse case senerios of persecutation came true

You'd still die for him though, right? You'd die for me, too, right?

3) eternal life

Yes, because of all that unconditional love and forgiveness, he runs the risk of burning.

4) unconditional forgiveness for all past deeds going back to earliest days

He already got forgiven for them, though, right?

5) At least the possibility of divine healing

I'd say his chances are still about equal to yours on that score

6) people who don't even know you but are willing to devote at least 4 minutes to concentrated wishes for his best interest should the need arize.

I assume you've been doing this for him?

7) people who are willing to come get you anywhere anytime for any need 24-7.

Taxis don't pick up atheists?

8) People who actually like you for youself regardless of corny jokes.

Yes, we atheists all like each other for our nice hair.

9) regular source of pot luck dinners.

Hell, all he needs for that is a Southern family who has reunions.

O by the way, does this mean that you guys like him now??

He's taken a step down the path to earning my respect. 'Course, you wouldn't know anything about that.

because for all the time he's been posting on Sec Web he's been an object of total derision and scorn.

Yep. Now, it seems that the reasons for deriding his posts are no longer valid. Time will tell what happens next.

I've some of the most humiliating and insulting things said about him over and over again for no better reason than that he dared to have his own view point which differed from that of the atheist hoard mocking him.

Musta given you quite the sense of deja vu. Of course, he will get just as much of that, and probably a lot worse from the likes of you and Theo. He's not even a person now, after all, right?

But now, magically, suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye, he's been trasnformed into a worthy person with this wonderful "extended family."

Jealous?

Ok I hope RW will let me know if he is able to ever barrow money from any of these great extended relatives.

If "family" to you means "bank," then it's no wonder you have the free time to post as much as you do.

My family has been financially by chruches many times, when atheists start giving money to other athesits who need it maybe we'll start to see if they really have anything like a family.

Man, your family makes me sad.

In the mean time I think its remarkable how he changed from being the worst object of scorne to a wonderful guy over night like that.

Don't worry, Meta. You were always a better scorn target. Now more than ever.

Take good care of him now.

I'm sure he's quite capable of taking care of himself. What he'll find with us is understanding and support.

Prick.

Mageth · 02-08-2002, 02:38 PM

If we walk past all the failures of Christians and return to Christ I believe there is nothing to compare with the value system that Christ taught. Though other fine religions have much to offer, none are to me as pure.

Two of the most moral, caring people I've known, both of whom I count as lifelong friends, were both liberal Moslems. They put to shame the "purity" of most, if not all, "pure" xians I've known.

hezekiah jones · 02-08-2002, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:
... your hatred of Christ and Christians ...

Sheesh. Helen, you sure take a lot of undeserved horseshit from so-called "christians."

Quote:

This does not make him a convert to atheism so much as a convert from fundamentalism.

Nobody "converts" to atheism. People just often realize what a sham their religions are.

Quote:

For that I thank and bless the Creator of all mankind and his son our Saviour Jesus Christ, but I do so knowing that we are forgiven for all our intellectual misunderstandings, as long as we walk along the path of peace and divine love while still viewing the rainbow - the teachings of Christ.

How fucking pompous can you get. I expect this sort of fatuous, holier-than-thou grandstanding is quite validating for rainbow walking. Keep up the good work.

Mageth · 02-08-2002, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:

Your sarcasm towards Metacrock and your bending over backwards to justify RW's latest writing to your readers leads me to wonder whether your hatred of Christ and Christians exceeds your love of them...

I imagine too that RW embraced Calvin and Divine Sovereignty before he understood fully the demands made by God on human responsibility.

Boy, you sure imagine a lot of things about people you know very little about. Why don't you keep your "wonderings" to yourself?

How can you imagine that Helen "hates" Christianity and Christians? All I've seen her express is her dislike for some of the actions and beliefs of Chiristianity and some Christians.

HelenM · 02-08-2002, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:
Hi Helen

Your sarcasm towards Metacrock

Oh, come on, you must have heard the argument - Paul the Apostle was sarcastic - what's wrong with sarcasm?

and your bending over backwards to justify RW's latest writing to your readers

huh? where did i do that?

leads me to wonder whether your hatred of Christ and Christians exceeds your love of them.

I think my feelings towards Christians are very much related to their own behavior.

You think I hate Christ? Well, that's a stretch. Where did I ever say that???

I do not hate Christ

I suppose you are going to try to claim that unless I love Christians I hate Christ. *sigh*

It's probably because I have loved Christ, that I ended up so disappointed with Christians.

Do you really claim to love and know those besieged by doubts as RW seemingly is ... though I imagine his intellect is currently confusing him and his underlying love of peace will bring him home

Why would I have a single thing against rw? He has posted many kind things to me since I was first posting here.

If you have known doubt that is one thing but to castigate Christians for their concern is another

You call Metacrock's post concern??? You see that sarcastic diatribe against atheists as concern? Wow

and I question your commitment to prayer in this matter and hence your sincerity.

Well then you need to go read 1 Cor 13 again to see that you ought to think the best of me. If not then I question your obedience to the Word of God

I imagine too that RW embraced Calvin and Divine Sovereignty before he understood fully the demands made by God on human responsibility.

Before? Calvinists understand human responsibility

You seem to be rather theologically-biased.

This does not make him a convert to atheism so much as a convert from fundamentalism.

Aren't you putting words into his mouth? He seemed to be saying God isn't there. That's a bit more drastic a change in beliefs than you seem to be thinking!

For that I thank and bless the Creator of all mankind and his son our Saviour Jesus Christ, but I do so knowing that we are forgiven for all our intellectual misunderstandings, as long as we walk along the path of peace and divine love while still viewing the rainbow - the teachings of Christ.

By all means thank and bless Him. I have no problem with that SB. I respect your beliefs as I respect the non-belief of atheists. What I abhor is using this situation to make disparaging comments about the insincerety of atheist well-wishes to rw

Blessings and Peace

So, are you Hilarius? Would you please answer my question?

love
Helen

Spirit Branded · 02-08-2002, 02:48 PM

Hell Mageth

I said
...you can't have the value system without its creator.

You said
Why not?
There are lots of "value systems" in the world, posessed by many people, of which there are no "creators" (other than the societies in which they were created.)

I reply
I need to know who created value and why? When I know the creator's motive I will more willingly accept that creator's purpose for me.

The stone Gods of Easter Island have no measurable purpose for me regardless of any value system attributed to them originally and which survive in only the most vestigial form if at all.

The values of Christ matter to me because he demonstrated them, along with his purpose for me. His life, teachings, death and resurrection are recorded and I can study them. I find them wholly credible as bearing the marks of truth and the power to change people more effectively than atheism and humanist ideas ever will.

You said :-
Note that most if not all of the xian "values" are not original to xianity

I reply
Since Christ was at the beginning of all things it would not surprise me to find traces of his ideas in other perceptions of God. Why should that surprise you or me?

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

Mageth · 02-08-2002, 02:49 PM

viewing the rainbow - the teachings of Christ

An apt analogy. A phenomenon that one can never reach, and which, once one gets over one's "intellectual misunderstanding", one realizes is, in reality, only an illusion.

HelenM · 02-08-2002, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:

How can you imagine that Helen "hates" Christianity and Christians? All I've seen her express is her dislike for some of the actions and beliefs of Chiristianity and some Christians.

Actually - to be technical - I hate the sin but I don't hate the sinner

Therefore I do not hate any person

. Some people really don't like me, otoh...

love
Helen

Spirit Branded · 02-08-2002, 02:53 PM

Mageth ... you need to check with your scientific friends about rainbows ... which are no more an illusion than my big toe.

Blessings and Peace

Spirit Branded

02-08-2002, 02:35 PM	#122
phlebas Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Metropolis Posts: 916	<strong>1) unconditional love</strong> Does he not have that from you anymore? <strong>2) people who would be willing to die for him if worse case senerios of persecutation came true</strong> You'd still die for him though, right? You'd die for me, too, right? <strong>3) eternal life</strong> Yes, because of all that unconditional love and forgiveness, he runs the risk of burning. <strong>4) unconditional forgiveness for all past deeds going back to earliest days</strong> He already got forgiven for them, though, right? <strong>5) At least the possibility of divine healing</strong> I'd say his chances are still about equal to yours on that score <strong>6) people who don't even know you but are willing to devote at least 4 minutes to concentrated wishes for his best interest should the need arize.</strong> I assume you've been doing this for him? <strong>7) people who are willing to come get you anywhere anytime for any need 24-7.</strong> Taxis don't pick up atheists? <strong>8) People who actually like you for youself regardless of corny jokes.</strong> Yes, we atheists all like each other for our nice hair. <strong>9) regular source of pot luck dinners.</strong> Hell, all he needs for that is a Southern family who has reunions. <strong>O by the way, does this mean that you guys like him now??</strong> He's taken a step down the path to earning my respect. 'Course, you wouldn't know anything about that. <strong>because for all the time he's been posting on Sec Web he's been an object of total derision and scorn.</strong> Yep. Now, it seems that the reasons for deriding his posts are no longer valid. Time will tell what happens next. <strong>I've some of the most humiliating and insulting things said about him over and over again for no better reason than that he dared to have his own view point which differed from that of the atheist hoard mocking him.</strong> Musta given you quite the sense of deja vu. Of course, he will get just as much of that, and probably a lot worse from the likes of you and Theo. He's not even a person now, after all, right? <strong>But now, magically, suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye, he's been trasnformed into a worthy person with this wonderful "extended family."</strong> Jealous? <strong>Ok I hope RW will let me know if he is able to ever barrow money from any of these great extended relatives.</strong> If "family" to you means "bank," then it's no wonder you have the free time to post as much as you do. <strong>My family has been financially by chruches many times, when atheists start giving money to other athesits who need it maybe we'll start to see if they really have anything like a family.</strong> Man, your family makes me sad. <strong>In the mean time I think its remarkable how he changed from being the worst object of scorne to a wonderful guy over night like that.</strong> Don't worry, Meta. You were always a better scorn target. Now more than ever. <strong>Take good care of him now.</strong> I'm sure he's quite capable of taking care of himself. What he'll find with us is understanding and support. Prick.

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02-08-2002, 02:33 PM	#121
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	...you can't have the value system without its creator. Why not? There are lots of "value systems" in the world, posessed by many people, of which there are no "creators" (other than the societies in which they were created.) Note that most if not all of the xian "values" are not original to xianity.

02-08-2002, 02:38 PM	#123
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	If we walk past all the failures of Christians and return to Christ I believe there is nothing to compare with the value system that Christ taught. Though other fine religions have much to offer, none are to me as pure. Two of the most moral, caring people I've known, both of whom I count as lifelong friends, were both liberal Moslems. They put to shame the "purity" of most, if not all, "pure" xians I've known.

02-08-2002, 02:45 PM	#125
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Originally posted by Spirit Branded: Your sarcasm towards Metacrock and your bending over backwards to justify RW's latest writing to your readers leads me to wonder whether your hatred of Christ and Christians exceeds your love of them... I imagine too that RW embraced Calvin and Divine Sovereignty before he understood fully the demands made by God on human responsibility. Boy, you sure imagine a lot of things about people you know very little about. Why don't you keep your "wonderings" to yourself? How can you imagine that Helen "hates" Christianity and Christians? All I've seen her express is her dislike for some of the actions and beliefs of Chiristianity and some Christians.

02-08-2002, 02:48 PM	#127
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Hell Mageth I said ...you can't have the value system without its creator. You said Why not? There are lots of "value systems" in the world, posessed by many people, of which there are no "creators" (other than the societies in which they were created.) I reply I need to know who created value and why? When I know the creator's motive I will more willingly accept that creator's purpose for me. The stone Gods of Easter Island have no measurable purpose for me regardless of any value system attributed to them originally and which survive in only the most vestigial form if at all. The values of Christ matter to me because he demonstrated them, along with his purpose for me. His life, teachings, death and resurrection are recorded and I can study them. I find them wholly credible as bearing the marks of truth and the power to change people more effectively than atheism and humanist ideas ever will. You said :- Note that most if not all of the xian "values" are not original to xianity I reply Since Christ was at the beginning of all things it would not surprise me to find traces of his ideas in other perceptions of God. Why should that surprise you or me? Blessings and Peace Spirit Branded

02-08-2002, 02:49 PM	#128
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	viewing the rainbow - the teachings of Christ An apt analogy. A phenomenon that one can never reach, and which, once one gets over one's "intellectual misunderstanding", one realizes is, in reality, only an illusion.

02-08-2002, 02:53 PM	#130
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Mageth ... you need to check with your scientific friends about rainbows ... which are no more an illusion than my big toe. Blessings and Peace Spirit Branded

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