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Old 09-19-2002, 12:26 PM   #61
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Originally posted by Corwin:
<strong>...many of these 'too strong' claims are not actually made by proponents of acupuncture...</strong>
The origin of the claims is not the issue; the lack of objective evidence supporting them is.

Rick
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:32 PM   #62
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Originally posted by rbochnermd:
<strong>

The origin of the claims is not the issue; the lack of objective evidence supporting them is.

Rick</strong>
Then I suppose evolution is bunk too? After all... we've never seen a dog give birth to a cat!!!!!
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:32 PM   #63
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Originally posted by Corwin:
And how do you determine if pain is relieved? Simple. You can do one of two things: You can set up an invasive procedure to monitor brain chemistry, endorphin levels, EEG and EKG readings, and body language...

Or you can ask the patient 'does this hurt?'

Of course since the latter is anecdotal... I guess it's just not kosher.[/QB]
Which is why I made the distinction of calling it an "event". Anecdotal would be "My aunt sally said that she didn't hurt after stopping hitting her head against the wall". It's all about how the individual events are reported and recorded.

As much as I hate the dictionary game, your own definitions contradict you. An anecdote is the story that's told, not that which is being told. It is the act of reporting the information, not the information.

I don't see how you have a leg to stand on in this case, you cannot rationally draw a parallel between empirical studies and anecdotal evidence, no matter how you try to equivocate the two.
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:33 PM   #64
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Originally posted by Corwin:
<strong>And how do you determine if pain is relieved? Simple. You can do one of two things: You can set up an invasive procedure to monitor brain chemistry, endorphin levels, EEG and EKG readings, and body language...

Or you can ask the patient 'does this hurt?'

Of course since the latter is anecdotal... I guess it's just not kosher.</strong>
Some patients claim relief with prayer, too, but that doesn't objectively validate prayer.

Rick
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:33 PM   #65
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Sorry nial. You can only separate the two by using your own definitions for the words.
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:35 PM   #66
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Originally posted by Corwin:
<strong>Then I suppose evolution is bunk too? After all... we've never seen a dog give birth to a cat!!!!!</strong>
Wow...this is like shooting fish in a barrel...

What brought forth this idiocy?

Rick
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:37 PM   #67
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Some patients claim relief with prayer, too, but that doesn't objectively validate prayer.

Rick
And when this has been objectively looked at, it's been found that when people pray they frequently put themselves into a mild meditative state.

From my own experience I can inform you that this can be quite effective in controlling mild to moderate pain. (I wouldn't want to try to control the pain of a broken limb with it... but for lesser amounts it works very well, thanks.)

But of course since we're all being scientifically objective we need to just brush this off as silly superstition out of hand. My bad.
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:40 PM   #68
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Wow...this is like shooting fish in a barrel...

What brought forth this idiocy?

Rick
What idiocy? You yourself said that it doesn't matter where the claim comes from. By that logic the braindead creationists that make that exact argument are right and evolution is wrong... it doesn't matter that evolutionary theory doesn't make that claim to begin with, all that matters is the fact that there's no evidence to support the claim.
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:43 PM   #69
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<strong>Sorry nial. You can only separate the two by using your own definitions for the words.</strong>
I don't have to use my definitions. The ones you present don't even support you. Read them again. They call an anecdote an "account" and a "narrative".

The *secondary* definition of the dictionary.com definition says "a particular or detached incident or fact". However, the entire point of scientific studies is to have universal and mutually connected incidents and facts to support a statement.
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Old 09-19-2002, 12:44 PM   #70
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Fair enough....

<a href="http://www.acupuncture-online.com/nih.html" target="_blank">What about this?</a>

I'd like to hear some opinions on what is mentioned there...
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The NIH Debacle
In 1997, a Consensus Development Conference sponsored by the National Institutes of Health and several other agencies concluded that "there is sufficient evidence . . . of acupuncture's value to expand its use into conventional medicine and to encourage further studies of its physiology and clinical value." [20] The panelists also suggested that the federal government and insurance companies expand coverage of acupuncture so more people can have access to it. These conclusions were not based on research done after NCAHF's position paper was published. Rather, they reflected the bias of the panelists who were selected by a planning committee dominated by acupuncture proponents [21]. NCAHF board chairman Wallace Sampson, M.D., has described the conference "a consensus of proponents, not a consensus of valid scientific opinion."

Although the report described some serious problems, it failed to place them into proper perspective. The panel acknowledged that "the vast majority of papers studying acupuncture consist of case reports, case series, or intervention studies with designs inadequate to assess efficacy" and that "relatively few" high-quality controlled trials have been published about acupuncture's effects. But it reported that "the World Health Organization has listed more than 40 [conditions] for which [acupuncture] may be indicated." This sentence should have been followed by a statement that the list was not valid.
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posted by Sirenspeak:
But you didn't answer my question...would you be willing to go back and see if it would work for you...know that you know it's "junk science"? Just courious...
No, because now I know better. My mom has x-rays of collapsed vertebrae, etc. in her back and she believes that Benny Hinn healed her when she put her hand on the TV screen. How did that happen? The immune system is just as amazing as the placebo effect. Sometimes people get better, sometimes they don't.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]</p>
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