Ed

As an example to others and so that their victims deaths would not have been in vain and so that the perpertrators would realize the seriousness of what they had done.

Starboy

Ed, get serious. No one on earth knows if Dahlmer of Hitler are in heaven or hell. How could that possibly be an example to anyone?

Starboy

Ed

Actually, there is strong evidence that matter and energy came into existence at the big bang. Therefore it has not always existed and therefore needs a cause "outside" of itself, this fits God quite well.

The Naked Mage

Does accentuating God's engineering shortcomings by dying count as a meaningful death?

Wouldn't God, being petty and jealous, send BOTH the killer and the victim to torment for bringing attention to the imperfections that he himself imbued in Man? Because the Bible makes it rather clear that he really hates that. How could such a death not be in vain, again?

Eudaimonist

What evidence is this? I am not aware of any strong evidence for this claim.

NOGO

Ed, I do not believe that you know the meaning of the word evidence.

Still, if all you say is true and it would fit God quite well, it would not fit the Bible at all.

What Genesis describe does not compare at all with the Big Bang.

Ed

I asked you a question first. Answer my question and then I will answer yours.

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Ed: Well that contradicts your own earlier weird point that most men want to be sexually attacked by a stronger woman. jtb: If a rapist wants to force himself upon a specific woman, then he generally won't mind if that specific woman initiates sex with him instead. Hence the misapplication of the Golden Rule.

Rape is hardly equivalent to "initiating sex."

Quote:

jtb: But this is irrelevant anyhow, because we're talking about the Israelite society described in the Old Testament. You cannot use New Testament teachings to describe the legality of rape in Old Testament times.

No, in this exchange you said that both Christ and the entire bible allowed rape. Obviously your attempt to change the venue to just the OT is a sign that I have proven my point.

Quote:

jtb: A nonexistent mythical being is insufficient cause. Ed: You have yet to prove His non-existence. jtb: The Biblical God cannot possibly exist, due to Biblical errors and contradictions. Many have already been mentioned. For more, see www.skepticsannotatedbible.com or the II Library.

Even if there were biblical errors and contradictions, this does not necessarily disprove the existence of the biblical God. But I have demonstrated that all the mentioned ones only appear to be errors because of the very superficial and out of context readings by the skeptics.

Quote:

jtb: The theist does NOT know that logic works, or that it has any relationship to any hypothetical "real world" even if it APPEARS to work within his own mind. Ed: He doesnt KNOW it works but it IS a rational assumption given that without logic you cannot even think. jtb: And an atheist can make the SAME assumption, for the SAME reason. The difference is that, having made this assumption, the atheist can then use these faculties to investigate WHY they work, and come up with a more complete answer than the theist can.

Yes, he can assume that logic works but he cannot reason out of himself to the existence of a subject-object correlation because he denies the existence of a personal creator whereby a correlation would have been established.

Quote:

Ed: He doesnt know that he as an "I" is a person but he can make the rational assumption that whatever caused his existence has at least what it takes to produce an I, so it is likely to have some of the aspects of an "I"(person). jtb: My parents caused my existence. They are persons. And I observe that many animals have various "person" characteristics, therefore I can see that there is no reason why a distant ancestor that was 50% human couldn't have come from one that was 49.999% human. And there is overwhelming scientific evidence that this did indeed happen. Therefore I know where "personhood" came from.

But you have still not established that all this evidence is not part of just a realistic dream (see above about subject-object correlation).

Quote:

Ed: I think I have demonstrated that for a theist he is acting rationally to believe that an external reality exists, see above. While the atheist does not have a rational basis for believing that an external reality exists. jtb: This statement is false, and you know it. Therefore you are lying again.

No, see above.

Quote:

Ed: Actually if physical laws exist then that means there is order in the universe and order only comes from a Mind. jtb: This statement is obviously false. You've never seen crystals form?

No, you are assuming what you are trying to prove. I said if natural laws exist then there is order. Crystals are the result of natural laws and orderliness of the molecules. You need to provide evidence that order can come about without either natural laws, intelligence, or a pre-existing order, ie the molecules of the crystals.

Quote:

Ed: The hebrews like modern mormons had genealogical records that they kept separate from their sacred scriptures. The scriptures were not meant to be exhaustive genealogies. They used those genealogical records when determining who was qualified to be a priest. Some of the names are not recognized as significant to us, but to the people that lived closer to them in time recognized them as such. jtb: Evidence that names were deliberately omitted from Biblical genealogies: { } Evidence that they were NOT deliberately omitted: the continuity of dates. The actual age of each person when HE (not someone else) begat the next. Therefore this claim is bunk.

No, see explanation of Dr. Green's comparison of the genealogies in Ezra and I Chronicles.

Quote:

jtb: Yes, we DO know what God is like from scriptures. Vicious, evil, tyrannical, genocidal, bloody, warlike, unjust... Ed: You have yet to demonstrate that God fits these characteristics other than from a very superficial perspective. When looking at the scriptures as a whole and in context it is obvious he is none of those things and in fact is the antithesis of them. jtb: No, it isn't. But we have already determined that you are a psychopath: you are not capable of recognizing these characteristics.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but ad hominems will never hurt me!

Quote:

Ed: Also, ironically, it is only because you have been influenced by His moral laws (being raised in a Western Judeo-christian society) do you even think that such things are evil. People who have rejected His moral teachings such as the Nazis don't consider all those things evil. jtb: Plenty of other societies recognize these things as evil, and the Nazis were predominantly Christians. They didn't reject Christian morality: that is clear from YOUR defense of genocide on this thread.

No, they were not predominantly christians, reread my earlier thread about the excellent bio of Hitler by Ian Kershaw. Again as I said genocide is the destruction of a group because of the WHO they are, I was defending the punishment of evil DOERS, ie WHAT they had done or would do in the future from the perspective of an omniscient God.

Quote:

Ed: Their deaths ARE directly related to their father's punishment, ie their death is a major part of their father's punishment. jtb: Their "fathers" are LONG DEAD, Ed.

No, I was referring to their immediate fathers.

Quote:

Ed: But their deaths are not DIRECTLY related to what their father's did. jtb: The Bible says you're lying, Ed.

They are related only in that they are part of the punishment of a nation, ie the Amalekites, but their individual deaths are not directly FOR what their ancestors did. Notice God never mentioned individuals, he used the term "Amalekites". This was primarily for national guilt, only secondarily individual guilt. These nations were cut off to prevent the corruption of Israel and the rest of the world see Deut. 20:16-18.

Quote:

Ed: Also death is not always a punishment to the person experiencing it, sometimes it is a rescue. And this is probably the case with many of the Amalekite children. jtb: And the victims of the Holocaust, right? But this isn't evil anyhow, right?

In some cases during the Holocaust I am sure God ended some suffering quickly to prevent long term suffering. Why is that evil? As long as it is done by someone that knows the entire situation exhaustively, ie God.

Quote:

Ed: Just because God timed their deaths at the time of the accounting of the adults does not mean that they were receiving punishment for what their fathers did. jtb: The Bible says otherwise.[/i] Ed: No, He was punishing the fathers NOT them, see above. jtb: The Bible SAYS OTHERWISE, Ed! No matter what you PREFER to believe, you cannot deny that the Bible SAYS OTHERWISE. If you DO deny that the Bible SAYS OTHERWISE, then you are lying AGAIN.

No, see above.

Quote:

jtb: There is nothing remotely rational about the assumption that the original Amalekites DID NOT celebrate their victory over the Israelites, and neither did any of their descendants for 400 years, and THEN they suddenly started celebrating, and THIS provoked God into action but the original victory did not! Ed: No, he was merciful to the original ones, except of course in the afterlife for the ones that didnt repent. It just came about that after 400 years of mercy that justice needed to be satisfied. jtb: Why won't you address my point that punishing one generation in sixteen is incompetence, not "mercy", and that this means there is virtually no danger of punishment?

Down thru time only social darwinists have called mercy, incompetence. So such a charge is expected coming from an atheistic evolutionist like yourself.

Quote:

jtb: The RATIONAL assumption is that God does not exist. This explains why he couldn't act at the time, or at any time thereafter, until the Israelites were militarily capable of striking back WITHOUT God's help.. Ed: Again, you have yet to demonstrate He does not exist. jtb: Yes, we have. Re-read this entire thread. NOW. ...and so it goes, around and around and around...

No, YOU need to reread the entire thread. :banghead: :banghead:

winstonjen

So you're changing the playing field AGAIN!

In any case, the IMMEDIATE fathers were NOT the ones who commited the crime to begin with.

Well, why didn't your god prevent any of the suffering from occuring IN THE FIRST PLACE? Because he doesn't really care, perhaps?

Jack the Bodiless

Forcing women to marry the murderers of their families, genocide, and the punishment of innocents for the crimes of others, are evil because they cause unnecessary and undeserved suffering. That is evil, by definition.

Therefore, by endorsing these, you are supporting evil.
To you and me, no. To the rapist, yes. Some rapists just want sex, and see violence simply as a means to that end: they don't want to be violent (these are the rapists who will use date-rape drugs such as rohypnol). And others are into sado-masochism, which is part of sex as far as they're concerned.
Even the New Testament allows rape: it doesn't specifically declare rape to be wrong. But your attempt to change the venue to just the NT is a sign that I have proven MY point.
Because of Biblical errors and contradictions, the Bible cannot be literally true. Therefore the BIBLICAL God, the god described and defined by the Bible, cannot possibly exist: at most, a god similar to the Biblical God might exist.

And you have not "demonstrated" anything. You have repeatedly invented stories not in the Bible (which frequently contradict what the Bible actually says) and ignored parts that you don't like.
EVOLUTION establishes the subject-object correlation, as a survival trait. This has been explained to you, many times. Therefore, in claiming that the atheist CANNOT rationalize a subject-object correlation, you are LYING again.
Neither have YOU. But I have good reason to trust subject-object correlation, UNLIKE you. I don't believe in the existence of a being that is capable of generating this delusion: you do. The Bible says that God sends delusions, and will play cruel tricks even on his own followers (Book of Job).
The statement IS false. Therefore you ARE lying.
Why should I wish to "prove" such obvious nonsense? OF COURSE there are natural laws! OF COURSE that's how crystals form!

The "obviously false" statement is your claim that "order only comes from a Mind". Crystal formation is an example of an orderly process that does not require the intervention of a human mind, or any other known mind.

There's NO reason to assume that natural laws require INTELLIGENCE. You have it backwards: intelligence arose from natural laws (evolution).
And see explanation of why Dr. Green is just making stuff up. Also, see the point I made in the above-quoted post: genealogies where there is a continuity of dates, unlike Ezra and 1 Chronicles. And, in the case of Matthew, the specific use of the phrase "ALL the generations", and the COUNT of the number of generations (fourteen).

Dr. Green is wrong.
Kershaw's biography of Hitler doesn't change the FACT that the Nazis were predominantly Christians (at least 85% of Nazi Party members).

This is the definition of "genocide", from www.mirriamwebster.com: "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group". The massacre of the Amalekites (a racial, political and cultural group) WAS genocide.

It is clear FROM THE BIBLE that the Amalekites were killed because they were members of that group.

It is also clear FROM THE NAZIS that they sought to justify the Holocaust from what the Jews did (or were accused of doing).
Their immediate fathers didn't DO ANYTHING, Ed. And the Bible says you're wrong.
WHY is the nation of the Amalekites to be punished?

For what their ancestors DID.

You KNOW this, Ed. It is OBVIOUS that you know it.
What the fuck is "national guilt"??? A nation isn't a PERSON.
After FOUR HUNDRED YEARS of this "corruption"?
He allowed a LOT of suffering, for MILLIONS of people, over several YEARS.
God is incompetent because he doesn't EXIST. He is no more "merciful" than the Tooth Fairy.

And down through time only theists have called genocide "holy", and you have persisted in this evil.

winstonjen

I don't think anyone could blame you. Even Ed has trouble reading this thread, and he claims to want to 'debate' with others here.

Isn't this thread bigger than the old "Where was god" topic in the old RRP forum?