livius drusus

For an excellent overview of the history of Holocaust revisionists and their organizations (including the ones linked to above by FPY) as well as an informative and unflinchingly balanced review of Lipstadt's Denying the Holocaust, see University of Colorado professor and Native American activist Ward Churchill's Assaults on Truth and Memory: Holocaust Denial in Context.

-FPY-

alli -

TomboyMom should not have used such hyperbolic and emotive language. That alone makes her statement somewhat dubious. TomboyMom's account of her mother's experience does not mean the experience actually took place, and it certainly does not necessarily mean that it took place in the manner that she described. I do not doubt that TomboyMom's mother suffered persecution under the NS German regime, by the way. I'm simply saying that just because a 'survivor' gives a tear-jerking account of his or her treatment, it doesn't actually have to have taken place in such a manner, or even at all.

You also ignored my reference to Elie Wiesel, by the way.

lunachick -

I was critiquing TomboyMom's argument, even if it is a straw man.

Jews are dishonest. They cannot be believed. Jews manuafacture outrageous claims against gentiles for no reason.

What an intellectual argument against the evil revisionists! How succinct and downright academic an interpretation of the evil mind of a holocaust-denier! If TomboyMom is going to cry anti-Semitism, then I'll bring in the Talmud.


Are you aware of how much money the Jews have extracted from Western nations due to reparations?


Because I don't make silly statements that ridicule the discussion. (This is in reference to Murdering millions of Jews (gypsies, gay people, etc.) is not a holocaust because those people are not really people and so don't count.) Also, why must every holocaust-enforcer (the equal and opposite to the evil holocaust-denier) taint the denier as a Nazi?

There are many academic theories as to why the holocaust occurred - in whatever way it did - that do not rely on Jew-worship and/or twisting of historical fact. I can provide some sources/links if you are interested in this.

The Jews are by no measure an "innocent" people.

Historical fact, which is as objective as possible.

They are relevant to the question of whether or not the holocaust occurred.

No, it's just a nettlesome annoyance. Jewish supremacism at its finest (I am and am not joking with this).

My input was motivated by rhetoric that I am tired of seeing.

-FPY-

No. I do not think it is excellent. Would you like me to refute it, line-by-line, if necessary?

Hedwig

FPY, I would love to hear your views on the Shermer book I mentioned.

B. H. Manners

My uncle is from a Jewish family that converted to Christianity after fleeing Nazi Germany before WWII. After the war my uncle's father went back to find his three brothers and two sisters as well as their kids, cousins, aunts and uncles, ect. He never found one of about 200 people he was looking for. Something had to have happened to them.

We had a man emigrate from Germany after the war who was in a concentration camp. In fact if memory served me correctly he ran for mayor or city council here in Corsicana and lost. The fact he was in a camp with one of those tatoos made him pretty well known.

I MIGHT and that is an AWFULLY SLIM MIGHT may concede that some of the deaths and stuff happened due to shortage of supplies and diseases springing up due to no medicines available, but you'll never convince me that people were not shot,gassed to some extent, or hung for being Jews, gays, Jehovah's Witness, Church of Christ, Communist, and Social Democrat.

My first cousin-in-law's father said he liberated one of those camps and he said he saw people starved and lots of dead,naked, and decaying bodies being bulldozed into mass graves.

Vorkosigan

Hi BH!

Back from vacation, at an internet cafe on the beach. Swimming and snacking my way to fitness.

I think it is important to note that the camps in German liberated by the Allies were not death camps, but concentration camps. The starved, emaciated prisoners found by the thousand were the victims of long marches on little food from the east into German camps, ahead of the Russians, and other such privations. Dachau and Buchenwald saw the deaths of many, but they were not deliberately set up as extermination camps. That title is specifically reserved for sites in Poland such as Chelmno and Treblinka, from which there were few or no survivors (only 2 escaped from Chlemno, just 64 from Treblinka due to a camp revolt), I think 0 from Sobibor and 1 from Belzec; escapees were mostly recaptured). Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, Chelmno, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau were the death camps. Of these, the first four had wrapped up operations by the time the Russians arrived and the Germans had gotten rid of much of the evidence. Auschwitz and Majdanek were still operating, because they had a labor component in addition to the extermination component.

<goes back to snorkeling>


Vorkosigan

B. H. Manners

Thanks for the information Vorkosigan.

RED DAVE

[Insulting reference to anti-semites removed]

I lost 1/3 of my family in the holocaust. I am not moderate, temperate or reasonable about nazis or their apologists.

RED DAVE

Born Free

I hardly know where to start here to be honest. TomboyMom makes a statement about her mother's experience and you choose to wound her by saying her mother could be lying??? You then blame this on her choice of emotive and hyperbolic language in the rest of her defence. I say defence because defence was required given that someone clearly doesn't believe the holocaust happened. If a person has to ask if it did, then they really don't believe it did.

You also say that just because a survivor gives a tear-jerking account of their treatment, it doesn't mean it happened.

Survivors give facts nothing more. It appears tear-jerking because if you're human how can you fail not to be moved by the stories?? The shit that happened you couldn't make it up, how could you??? How could anyone make up new born babies being thrown alive into crematoria???

Given the amount of hard evidence available even today most decent people have a hard time getting their head around others who seek to discredit survivor testimonies, who want the nazi's to appear less monstrous than they were.

Why??? Is it just anti-semitism given that the jewish people were far and away the biggest target group of the holocaust???

Why??? I am interested to hear why you think the way you do, screaming and shouting at you won't change your mind, re-educating you might.

For your information I did not ignore your reference to Elie Wiesel, I clearly asked for you to elaborate, I asked what it is he has said that causes you to think he is lying.

Gurdur

Join the club, Red Dave, join the club.
Personally I'm disgusted by the rank hypocrisy of FPY's assertions and his blanket ad hominems.