StarkStirner

Simply restating your argument does not enhance it.

You are yet to show how it is impossible for free will to exist in a heaven whose inhabitants only do good. If you postulate that just one of the heavenly beings must forcedly do evil at least one time, you have dismantled your own argument by killing off free will.

The mere choice to do evil does not necessitate the actual doing of evil.

While I agree, it is unlikely for such a heaven to exist, it is not an impossibility.

Etched in a Box

On a lighter note, although we do have free will in heaven, I imagine that if you make an evil choice you'd get the boot, à la Satan.

So fear works up there as well? The opposing argument would most likely be that once you see how great heaven is, you would never want to change. Yet there still is that ominous infernal place called hell just looming around the corner...

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Etched in a Box ]</p>

Philosoft

What you are left with, however, is the absence of a mechanism that would make an all-good-action-heaven-with-free-will logically possible without coercion or intimidation. At the risk of a false dichotomy fallacy, it seems that the only possibilities are:

1) by pure chance, all inhabitants of heaven choose only good actions; this, of course, is not only mathematically implausible, but offers no predictive power that a future action will not be evil

2) there is an apparently non-logical mechanism by which heaven inhabitants freely choose only good actions that is not chance, divine coercion or intimidation and is not brought about by God's changing the nature of the soul in any way

Maybe not a proof of impossibility, but a sure respite from the burden of proof.

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]</p>

Technos

Just for the pun, I must ask, even though I see what you're saying.

What the HELL are you talking about geebo?

StarkStirner

In response to this point, it could be suggested that heavenly inhabitants constitute an upscale clientel, a gang of spiritually highly mature beings who have a very hard time choosing evil - although it is not beyond them. Maybe the soul receives a heavenly make-over when it comes home to Daddy. Or perhaps heaven brings out our metaphysical best because it's such a jolly nice place. Both scenarios reduce the implausibility substantially.
A logical mechanism could also be a simple reward system. The gifts for doing good will perhaps be so compellingly pleasing that few will even consider the option of doing evil. Not because they are punished by dirty deeds, but because they would be robbing themselves of tickets to an ambrosial joyride.

Panta Pei

Should I even suggest that no one has established the manner in which 'good' and 'evil' acts are determined?

Ex:

Could I refuse to attend harp class, go wandering off for a Guinness, and still be good?

Would I be considered evil for wearing black?

Would I be considered evil for saying things like, "Hey, Yah, that whole Hell things sucks. My friends are suffering, I'm off to help them out!"

Oh, and if I don't desire to think that may happen from the perspective I hold now, would that 'spirit' in Happyland(tm) still be 'me' or some mindless, sycophantic, nebulous automaton?



~Steve

S.A.TAN

hEYA!

Its mighty funny to see you guys debating over free will in heaven and whether it entails the possibility of doing evil.....

apparently doing evil in heaven was possible, hence the fall of Satan...that's one sad sod...

Xian's have this thing called "Dying to self" which means to crucify the flesh.....upon doing so.....they presumably take no more pleasure in anything that goes against the will of God.

Hence they would freely will to do good...or so it seems.

If you remember:"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

Xians, ideally will exchange their own fleshly will for the will of God freely.

Now at this point, the Xian has abdicated his free will through the exercise of free will....if you get what I mean. he sins only insofar as his free will can usurp the will of God in his heart.

There is no free will in heaven cos the pre requisite for getting inside is the total crucification of the fleshly will....

Thats why it is now impossible to do evil in heaven cos Xians have the benefit of the crucification of the flesh....unlike poor old satan.

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

Philosoft

Perhaps, but you are still left with a situation in which you have a significantly non-zero possibility of an evil action given that the human 'soul' is fundamentally unaltered. A "heavenly makeover" sounds suspiciously like a euphemism for reducing inherent free will.

Wouldn't a good action have to be more "compellingly pleasing" than the corresponding evil action? And wouldn't the individual soul need to experience or observe the evil action in order to judge its merits (or deficiencies) relative to the good action?

Which brings up another point, are evil thoughts possible in heaven? It seems that the elimination of evil thoughts renders the entire free will defense incoherent.

StarkStirner

Good points, Philosoft. Note that I'm not arguing that a) heaven is an actual place and b) heavenly free will without evil is likely - merely that it is possible and coherent for such a place to exist. Since we have little knowledge of what actually goes on up there, and what kind of environment the "fundamentally unaltered" souls will inhabit, I find it difficult to meaningfully speculate about the likelihood of evil. If we presuppose that heaven will largely resemble earth, I agree that it is extremely unlikely. But if we paint the sky purple, the odds may increase. Let's say we will be without physical bodies, that we will be close to God and around our loved ones, that we will have each and every of our desires easily fulfilled without entrenching on the domain of other eternal beings. Wouldn't that scenario seriously limit our reasons to do evil and make it unlikely for anyone to do so?

Additionally, it could be put forward that doing evil would simply be a violation of heavenly "physical" laws. On earth, I can't spread out my wings and take a quick fly around the neighbourhood. You wouldn't consider my free will inhibited for this reason. Only the options availiable to my free will would be hampered. Same could be the case in heaven.

This brings up the question of "evil thoughts". On earth I can think about taking an unaided flight, but gravity prevents me. In heaven I can think evil thoughts, but the "gravity of anti-evil" will not allow me to carry them out. A slight variation of this theme would be to suggest that heaven would be without evil not because of the laws governing it, but because of the way it was designed. What's the difference? Let's see: I pick up a knife in heaven because I want to stab another 'soul'. But when I lift my non-physical arm to stab that other soul, the gravity of anti-evil steps in and stops the knife mid-air. The variation of this theme would be a heaven without knives and without the ability to cause damage to other beings.

Philosoft

Note to Stark: I acknowledge that you are not explicitly defending the existence of heaven and I appreciate your engaging in this logical exercise with me.

Certainly, there are lots of things you can surmise that would reduce reasons to perform evil actions, but assuming that some form of time is applicable, there would necessarily need to be extraordinary actions taken to ensure that evil is not done at all points in heavenly time. If the possibility to do evil has not been somehow eliminated then this is an exercise in futility.

Well I suppose if free will doesn't have to be associated with the set of all logically possible actions but then the whole concept of free will decision making becomes incoherent because you're clearly not free to make a decision whether or not to spread your wings and fly. Whether you can wish to do it is immaterial; the decision to do it or not has already been made for you.

If anything is a forced limitation of free will, it is this.

I must say, I don't see any practical difference between a heaven that has laws and a heaven that was designed a certain way. I'm not sure I understand how the anecdote supports your argument. Is it your position that having begun the act of soul-stabbing is enough to qualify as a free will decision regardless of whether you are allowed to complete it?

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]</p>