CALDONIA

My comprehension is fine, your memory is selective, donald. In an earlier post you referred to the Saddam kids as being fanatics about religion and self-preservation. I agree with the latter but am not convinced of the former. I feel that they chose martyrdom no more than did Hitler and any martyrdom they achieve will be bestowed upon them by the words of others.

The Hussein gang look like secularist fascists who will use appeals to religious beliefs or doctrine for selfish purposes. I think we are in agreement on this. If I have misread your opinion on this issue, my apologies.

donaldkilroy

I do remember what I said well enough to have reitterated what I said in the previous posting.

Well, what you feel and what is actually the truth are completely two different things.

Hmmmm...sounds a lot like the Papacy, now doesn't it!

To say you believe yet turn around and sin the next minute doesn't mean you still cannot be a religious fanatic.

For the most part, yes.

The SwampThing

This discussion is fast becoming surreal.
Does anyone here doubt that the Army has means to open a hole in a wall? I would hope not!
And if they can open a hole in a wall(or a matressed window), what´s keeping them from throwing in a few gas grenades, wich they carry as part of their standard equipment?
Any doubts so far?
Has anyone even seen footage of the house?
Well, to that respect, i post here (again) a link to a portuguese site with a nice little animation composed of photos of the place.
When you click on the link, look for the satellite picture of Bagdad, and click on the word "continuar", wich is placed right above the
satellite photo. Keep clicking while you watch the photos, they are very interesting. There´s even one where you can see a TOW missile being fired at a hole on the side of the house.
nd once again, i will post a little timeline of the entire operation.

http://tsf.sapo.pt/online/internacio...tigo=TSF125832

-Tuesday, Jully 23rd.
10:00 Local time-Building surrounded. An interpreter asks the ocupants to surrender, using a megaphone.

10:10- Military forces entered the building, after no response was given. They arte met with gunfire, and retreat.

10:45- The building is attacked using Mk19 grenades, AT4 rockets, and .50 cal machinegun fire, mounted on the Humvees.

11:22- Arrival of more reenforcements.

11:45- A couple of DELTA OH58 choppers make several runs at the house, with rockets and minigun fire.

11:50- More reenforcements arrive.

11:55- The choppers cease fire on the house.

12:00- Second atempt to enter the house. First floor is taken, but they receive incoming fire from the second floor, so they retreat once again.

13.00- Ten (10) TOW missiles are fired at the house, in ruins.
Three ocupants killed.

13:21- New attempt to take the house. They occupy the first floor again, but receive fire from a fourth ocupant on the second floor.
The troops fire back and take the fourth ocupant out.

14:00 The assault is over. The bodies are removed, and Saddam´s sons are latter identified, thru dental records.

The media said the operation took 6 hours, when infact it took 4.
The house was not fortified, except for a heavy door and matresses in the windows of the second floor. First floor was empty, wich they could have used to introduce gas on the second floor.
The rest, well, i´ll leave for you guys to work out.
:banghead:

The SwampThing

Just a little thing to add:
Outside of the house, there was a special Psyops squad, along with the rest of the other troops.
Psyops are famous for the Noriega affair, aswell by other sinsitive situations. They are very well trained in hostage negotiations, hostage retrievals, and anti-terrorrism.
So, there you go.

Darwin26

DU Projectiles (Depelted Uranium) will bounce off mattresses ...

it was made to look like an operation when in fact, the house occupiers were at Our (sic) mercy from the second they were found out .


sorta like a Ruby Ridge ya think

Arken

TheSwampThing, how dare you post these things without having been there to witness it personally from every angle simultaneously! You're just some kind of book-reading smarty pants guy that I'm superior to in every way nyah nyah nyah (or something)

John Hancock

I've read this entire thread. I cannot view it without the remembrance of shrapnel and a short leg. Life in the field is not as standardized as some would like to believe. Others have expressed a desire of sacrifice that is less then personal. Regardless of the condemned nature of a conflict soldiers are not dispensable tools.

If you weren't there shut your fucking mouth!

John Hancock
__________________
"Fascism,should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power." Mussolini

The SwampThing

I AM BAFFLED...
And your point is...??!?

The SwampThing

If this little quote of yours, is your attempt to claim that people need to experience things by themselfs in order to understand them, them i´m afraid i need to remind you that you fall under the same category yourself, on a great number of issues.
A good example is dictatorship:
Have you ever lived under one? If not, what makes you the "expert" on that? Or anything else, for that matter!
Does that mean i´m the only one here who knows what it is like, just because i happened to lived under such regimes?
I sincerely hope not. Many things only require common sense, in order to fully understand them. If on top of common sense, we are also somewhat experient in other matters, so much the better! But self-experimentation is NOT a requirement, nor is it essential. Most of the time, self-experience is highly over-rated and over-estimated.

And this applies to everyone here.
On site experimentation and apreciation is not fundamental for knowledge. If it was, i would say George W.Bush knows as much of Iraq as he knows of the planet Uranus!How dare you imply he knows that Iraq had weapons of (m)ass destruction, if he´s never been there???
Or how the hell does he know the irqis wanted to be liberated, if never took the time to go there and ask them???

So, lets please drop this issue already. It stinks and it is not helping the discussion at hand.
Now, i think its pretty clear that although "we" were not there in person, we can still make our case stick.
We have photos, reports from people who were IN FACT there, and we also have a lifetime of exposure to similar events, adding to our common sense and general knowledge.
We are NOT experts, but we are not dumb neither!

Anyone who took the time to view the photos on the link i posted, will be able to see the troops standing around, calmly and tranquil, while the place was being raised to the ground.

1º This means they were NOT taking fire from the house, wich means they could take their sweet time to plan the next move.

2º There was also a PsyOps squad present, and i´m shure we all agree that those guys are in fact experts.

3º The US Army is fully equipped with both lethal and non-lethal ordenance. Therefore, we cannot argue "lack of means".

4º Army officers are trained in every scenario they can encounter, including this type of scenario. The soldiers may not be fully trained, but their commanding officers shurelly are.

5º There was no danger of escape, as they had the structure surrounded. Wich means the troops can take their sweet time to attack. They could even siege the place, and let those guys inside starve into submission. Not to mention the parafernalia of items the Army can use to induce submission and surrender.
Namely the following:
-Tear gas;
-Flashbang grenades;
-Laser incapacitant;
-Sleeping gas;
-Pepper spray;
-Sleep deprivation tactics, i.e loud noise or music, bright lights, or constant use of firepower without the intent to kill;
-Water shortage and heat exposure, by closing the water supply to the house´s system. Humans can only survive 3 days without water, before causing severe dehidration;
-hostage negotiators. Very effective in convincing the subjects to surrender;
-Rubber bullits;
-Electric charges, either using Tazer guns, or the new type of EMP guided missiles or bombs. Very effective on living things, without damage to structures;

-Or, when all else fails, just fuckin´aim at the legs!!!

I hope this small "infamous" list will qualify!
If after all this, there are still people who argue it couldn´t be done, well...
I give up!!
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

EDIT:
Edited to add this little piece that was missing in the operation timeline, in the post above:
The operation took place tuesday morning, but they received the info on Monday night. The iraqi civilian denounced the presence of important people in his house, many hours before the operation ever took place.
This is of high importance. It means that the troops on site, were picked long before the beginning of the op., and that they had time to bring in any unit they wanted.
Interesting, isn´t it?

Darwin26

...that is the truth that i suspect ...will surface some day

And it will be this ...that the Hussein Bros were murdered...conspicuous by the absense of the items and opportunities not used ... items and options that Swamp Thingy has in his post.
The Portuguese newspaper was real hard to read cause i don't speak the language but the pictures seemed to speak of a WACO or Ruby Ridge HOLLYWOOD tale... the bull horns were just for effect... i'm sure .
Why and how would you not want to capture the # 2 and 3 bandito's on your list?

Unless they made self inflicted wounds ... we should have taken them ... what's 2 more in Guantanamo?