Francois Tremblay

You do not understand the problem of evaluating medical propositions objectively. Anecdotal evidence is worth nothing because of the placebo effect and self-delusion. Any quack medecine has anecdotal evidence, it means strictly nothing.

If, as you say, we must decide on the basis of anecdotal evidence, then we must reject acupuncture or chiropracty as pseudo-science. Since these fields' causal basis are even more unsound, there is little more doubt to be had. It is clear that a lack of causal basis AND a lack of empirical evidence closes any case, be it in science, philosophy or any other field of thought you may want to choose.

As for whenever I think some "out there" hypothesis may have a sound basis, why yes. There is certainly a chance of that. But it's too late for acupuncture or chiropracty. There has been more than enough research on it.


As for the NIH study, let me briefly quote Quackwatch...

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Franc28 ]</p>

Pandora

At the end of the day, it all comes down to results for me. I’m prepared to try out alternative treatments on two conditions. First – that they are carried out by someone who is qualified in conventional medicine, and secondly – that no money changes hands.

As far as the placebo effect is concerned, my father uses us as guinea pigs when appropriate cos he knows we don’t have a problem saying “Pops, that was a load of rubbish.” And that goes for conventional medicine too. A lot of patients are too worried of offending the doctor to say something doesn’t work, or the problem is pretty psychosomatic to begin with.

His percentage success rates are worked out on return visits for the same problem.

beachbum

FWIW

I was on 5 meds a day and also taking nitro at least 6 to 10 times daily. I went to an acupuncturist and Chinese herbal medicine healer.

I now take about no nitro and no other drugs. My BP is in the normal range 120/88 and I feel better today than in 1997 when a surgeon told me the only way I could live was to have a double bypass. He also told me that there was a 20% chance that I could die. I do not know of anyone who ever died while having acupuncture treatments, the needles are real small.

Doctors pour drugs of which they know little,
To cure diseases of which they know less,
Into human beings of whom they know nothing. Voltaire

MortalWombat

Do you realize you can replace "acupuncturist" and "Chinese herbal medicine healer" with a number of titles, like "faith healer", "psychic surgeon", etc, and your testimony would be nearly identical to many other people's testimonies? What does that tell you?

Corwin

That last one was a bit over the top.... but the research is there to show that acupuncture DOES have an effect on pain. It won't regrow lost limbs or kill tumors.... but someone that has siatca doesn't need that. Acupuncture has been demonstrated to be about as effective as opiates, or nearly so. And guess what? It isn't addictive.

Valmorian

If Acupuncture and Chiropracty wish to be included in the scientific realm, they're going to have to discard their mysical trappings. Subluxations, Meridian lines and the like are fine and dandy in pseudoscience, but science requires more evidence than "It just works that way, trust me".

What I don't understand is this: If acupuncture is as effective as opiates, why isn't it in common use? Surely a blind study of acupuncture would EASILY support this claim. If that's the case, why don't we see dozens of citations supporting this? I'm sorry, but the "conspiracy of doctors" theory just doesn't hold a lot of water.

Corwin

First of all... it is in fairly wide use. Second of all... why aren't doctors using it? CLEARLY you haven't studied medical history, now have you?

How long did it take for anasthesia to come into widely accepted use?

Valmorian

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Is it? I mean, outside of "alternative medical centers" that also practice such things as homeopathy?

</strong>

Getting testy already? That didn't take long.
But you've already stated yourself Acupuncture is non-addictive. If it's so consistent and effective, why don't we see it in common use? Seriously! Acupuncture has been around for a LONG time, much longer than anasthesia, so why is it taking so long for it to be validated? Could it be that the tests for it are not as conclusive as you seem to suggest?

Corwin

How long has accupuncture been around in the west? Yeah... not quite thirty years.

How long did it take for doctors to start actually USING anasthetics during surgery? (Never mind recreational use of herion and opium.... that was different...) Longass time.

Change comes slowly. In the areas where accupuncture has been practiced for centuries, it's used. (Frequently for things it probably shouldn't be... but whatayagonna do?)

Dr Rick

...nor nearly as fun!