Tabula_rasa

OK, maybe my saying 'not honest' was a little strong. Perhaps disingenuous would be more appropriate? The Bible, despite what you may believe, is not the end-all-be-all of all that is absolute. But this is really getting OT.

Tabula_rasa

mike_decock

The issue is that the fruit of the tree was the SOURCE of the "knowledge of Good and Evil". Before they ate this fruit, they were not have been aware that eating it was a crime, even if it was defined as such.

This is like holding a dandelion morally accountable for growing in your grassy lawn.

-Mike...

Kevbo

OK, but like I said before, He knew everything that was going to happen when He created this particular universe. That means that He did set humanity up to disobey His own laws.

yguy

Had Adam not transgressed, it would have been tantamount to putting out the fire in the wastebasket before it involved the whole neighborhood. He'd have been like Ronald Reagan facing down Gorbachev.

Tenek

That's nice and all, but at that point there *wasn't* a neighbourhood. Just Adam and Eve. With no way to determine what actions are proper. If person A tells you something, and person B tells you something else, without knowledge it's impossible to tell whose commands should be followed.

Then we have the issue of the fall of "mankind" as opposed to "Adam and Eve", which brings in entirely new questions as to why God didn't just start over, or render sin non-inheritable.

So far as I can tell, the Christian god values the choice people make to follow Him or not, and uses this life to weed out the undesirables. That would include me. Oh boy. You're all welcome to blather on about how God all wants us to come to Him, but He knows damned well that many won't, and couldn't care less. Sounds like exactly the sort of god I'd worship.

Tenek

"we"? What the hell did you, or I, or anybody currently alive do? Where does this collective responsibility come from, and whose harebrained idea was it? Apparently when God commands that sons not be punished for the sins of their fathers, He ignored His disobedience of His own rule.

JERDOG

God cannot have known the future and give us free will at the same time. Lets just say I go rob a bank and kill three people. Now either god knew I was going to do this or he didn't know I was going to do it.
If he knew that I would do it before I was even born, then how can I be the one held responsible?

If he didn't know and he is caught by surprise of my actions, then he is not all knowing is he?

So which way is it going to be? Is he all knowing, or does he give us free will? It can't be both ways.

winstonjen

So if god explicitly said, "Rape your newborn children or burn in hell", that would be fair and righteous?

Calzaer

I'll trivialize it when it comes to Jesus.

Crusifixition usually took DAYS to kill its victim. Jesus got off with a poke to the side in a couple of hours. Then, the people who died usually got to spend ETERNITY in hell. Jesus spent three days... and he went through this 3 hours + 3 days WITH FULL KNOWLEDGE THAT HE WAS COMING BACK.

That wasn't a sacrifice. What did he sacrifice? That was a gesture. It would only be a sacrifice if he lost something. Jesus staying dead and in hell so that none of us would go there, THAT would be a sacrifice worthy of worship. The whole "coming back to life and going to heaven" bit turns it from a sacrifice into a show.

Keep in mind: The word SACRIFICE usually implies that you LOSE something. And calling Jesus the ultimate sacrifice implies that he suffered more than anyone else (which is blatantly false, since he spent less time on the cross, less time in hell, and NO time without hope) and lost something more than anyone else has lost. Jesus lost nothing. There was no sacrifice... just an after-dinner skit.

Infidelettante

quote:Magus55How easy it is for Christians to get carried away with the death of Jesus. No doubt it was not an easy death. When Joseph of Arimathea took Christ down from the cross were the two thieves still alive? People often lingered for days you know. Jesus seems to have gone through a quick death as crucifixions go.

Did the thieves have someone to look after them. Did some other wealthy member of the Sanhedrin appear out of nowhere to beg for their bodies and lay them in tombs? Or did they hang on their crosses through the night and into the morning and then to the next morning. Were they hanging on their crosses still when the angel rolled away the stone to reveal the empty tomb? If we would choose our saviors by their suffering I will choose either of the thieves over your Jesus.

Your Jesus, who could not even play dead for the full three days. Your Jesus, whose pitiful cries condemned his own God. Your Jesus, who in life seemed so powerful but in death could not outlast common criminals. Your Jesus, whose suffering served no purpose because he suffered too little and only tasted death. You say he suffered. I tell you ”not enough.” You say he died. I tell you “it was a little death.” You say he entered hell. I tell you “he left too soon.”

Not until your Jesus suffers as have all who suffer will he become God. Not until your Jesus lingers in torment as others have lingered will he become Divine. Not until your Jesus burns in Hell as the lost burn in Hell will he become a Savior. Not until your Jesus goes through the torment and death that humans go through and not the easy, quick one Gods go through will he be worthy of humanity.

JT