Aquila ka Hecate

Philosoft,
An untenable concept indeed.

I was fortunate/unfortunate enough to have lived with my mother as Alzheimer's killed her.
Having seen the degeneration of personality-that quality which is often mistaken for soul-and conciousness in a person, I would be at a loss to explain the concept os soul as seperate from the brain at all.

As the woman's brain degenerated so did that quality called 'soul' until at death, there was not a scrap of the original left.

There is no way that I can fit this observation into a concept of soul.Let alone one which survives death.
I've never had a satisfactory answer from a religious person on this one.
I wonder why?

Pomp

Aquila ka Hecate,

I was fortunate/unfortunate enough to have lived with my mother as Alzheimer's killed her.
Having seen the degeneration of personality-that quality which is often mistaken for soul-and conciousness in a person, I would be at a loss to explain the concept os soul as seperate from the brain at all.

I'm very sorry to hear that. I cared for my aunt while tumors were eating her brain and it's not pretty to watch a person slowly vanish as the physical substrate in which their personality exists is destroyed.

The soulist answer, I would suppose, is that the soul depends on the brain not for existence, but for interaction with the material world. This is, of course, not the parsimonious view, but I don't see that the existence of a souls is completely ruled out by the observation that persons vanish when their brains decompose.

Theli

Does afterlife require god?
I would say no.
If my consciousness would exist after the death of my body, god would not be required to pass that on to another living being.
God's only function, when it comes to afterlife, is to judge the soul and send it to certain a destination (heaven/hell) depending on it's actions in the previous life.

If that was true then this world would also require a god to create it.

I think of the consciousness as a program in a computer. The program is dependent on the computer (brain) aswell as a memory from wich to operate. But the program isn't a physical part of the computer.
It's an abstract. That's how I think of the consciousness.
Here's an example, if someone were to hit another person in the head with a hammer, turning him into a drooling vegetable, his behavior (aswell as his brain) changes but he would still have the same consciousness, right?
And another one, If a person looses his memory his behavior often changes but he still has the same consciousness.
I say that the consciousness doesn't change along with changes of the brain. Just as a program in a computer it can have trouble operating if the computer's ability decreases. Until the point where the program cannot function in the computer anymore and dissapears, only to exist in the computers memory (ex. harddrive).
Just like how the memory of the brain exists along with it's functions after the death of the consciousness (not long after though). But the program is gone.
Now, is it possible that a consciousness will be created a long time afterward that's an exact copy of my own?


A problem wich always arises (weither souls exists or not) is, can 2 beings exist with the same consciousness?
If you think of a teleport (like in StarTrek, or The Fly). Now, if you were to be teleported between point A and B where your body would be broken down into energy at point A and then reassembled at point B.
WIll the "new" body have the same consciousness?
Then what if the body was reassembled at 2 points (B and C)? Creating 2 identical bodies. Wich body would you be in control of?

sidewinder...
I wouldn't mind living forever, as long as my memory would be cleared once in a while.


This might all be crap, I don't know...

Aquila ka Hecate

Pompous Bastard,
I guess I just don't get it. If the brain is just the material world/soul interface, then WHERE does that soul go between the onset of brain deterioration and death?

It's not a sudden switch off, as you're probably aware, but rather a long, slow withdrawal, until no consiousness is left.

Do the soulists propose that the soul leaks away slowly to wherever it goes at death? Over a period of years?

Is it partly present in the person and partly in the hereafter?

I know that you only answered as a soulist would, but these are real problems.

WJ

I'm a Christian too and I don't think there is a requirement, though as the faith requires (as spoken by Jesus) one must accept and ask for a personal relationship with God to ensure salvation.

In any event, I've studied Near Death Experiences [NDE's} for awhile and have found that a cross section of folks (atheists, etc.) experienced a form or type of afterlife/phenomena.

<a href="http://www.near-death.com/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.near-death.com/index.html</a>

Enjoy.

Walrus

ex-preacher

Could you give me the book, chapter and verse where Jesus said this?

WJ

Hi Ex!

I'll check the concordance interpretation, but I think it's in Mathew...ps, I just realized you must be an ex-preacher...mmmm...?

Walrus

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

sidewinder

Not to get off topic but I'd be interested in knowing the verse(s)for this too. I've read and studied the canonical gospels, and I don't recall Jesus ever stating that "one must accept and ask for a personal relationship with God to ensure salvation."

Philosoft

I guess I'm missing something; where are the atheists on this site you link to? No matter, it is clear there is a strong neurophysiological component to NDEs so a sample that includes a cross-section of beliefs would be no surprise.

eh

You are aware that NDE's don't lend much credibility to orthadox Christianity, if true, correct?