Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bree · 04-22-2003, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
Are you implying that he speaks for all Christians?

It depends. His son is seen as the current spiritual leader of our country - was his father also seen in the same light? If so, then yes.

Rhea · 04-22-2003, 10:45 AM

I think the implication is that he speaks for the government.

His implication, that is. By making such a statement while in office.

GeoTheo · 04-22-2003, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave
I think it's possible to be a Christian without being a racist or bigot, because it's possible to be a Christian without taking the Bible as the literal word of God. But the fact is throughout the history of Christianity most Christians have been racists and bigots, and they have strong scriptural support for it.
edited to qualify that I was talking about American Christians.

I think you are making an unsupported assertion here. I would like to see this "strong Biblical support for racism and bigotry"
To me it looks like you are merely stereotyping. So Icould say you are bigot also. Anybody can call people names. I want to see some proof. First of all prove that you are not a bigot.

Rhea · 04-22-2003, 10:51 AM

"I am not here for the Gentiles"

I may have that a little wrong...

wildernesse · 04-22-2003, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Wildernesse although I am of Ireland I am (and proudly so) an American citizen. I became such while serving two tours of duty in 'Nam. I am well aware of American Christian habits of divorcing themselves from anything they don't like about their religions history.
If you belong to a church that doesn't spout hatred towards Atheists then it is truly a unique congregation and I'd like to known who they are so that I can send them a letter of appreciation.

I didn't know if you were American or not, my mind had holed you away in an overseas file. I don't think that you have to specify American Christians as the only people who ignore history, Americans in general (and this is as accurate as generalizations tend to be) are history-phobes, especially if that history does not glorify America, the shining city on a hill, perfection incarnate.

I attend a United Methodist church, and while I don't agree with its official positions on some things, I'm not forced to. I don't believe that the UMC has an anti-atheist bent to it. The most important person in my life, who I love more than anyone or anything else, is an atheist, and I am a Christian. How did the years of hatred spewed by the Church pass me by and allow me to love the precious and wonderful human that is Rufus?

--tibac

GeoTheo · 04-22-2003, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree
It depends. His son is seen as the current spiritual leader of our country - was his father also seen in the same light? If so, then yes.

Bree, I voted for him to be president. Not Pope. It would be convenient for critics of Evangelical Christianity for there to be an evangelical Pope but there is not. Billy Graham isn't even one. Christians disagree with Billy Graham all the time. I elect you spokesperson for all atheists however and will hold all atheists accountable to what you say and have said in the past from now on.

Godless Dave · 04-22-2003, 11:23 AM

For the first part, about most Christians throughout history being racists and bigots, I give you 1500 years of history of Christian Europe. Particularly the treatment of Jews and Muslims, and also of pagans, heretics, and suspected heretics. Also the African slave trade, the European colonial empires, the Ku Klux Klan, and the Southern Baptists. Before you accuse me of being on a moral high-horse, I freely acknowledge that other societies during that period of history also practiced racism and bigotry to a similar extent, and people were practicing it long before Christianity came along. But Christian doctrine was for the most part used to justify these practices, not fight them.

As for strong Biblical support:

Quote:

Genesis 24:3-4
And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:
But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac.

Genesis 28:1
And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.

Exodus 17:13-16
And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.
And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovahnissi:
For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

These parts of scripture discourage the faithful from associating with or marrying people of other nations. The last one encourages the faithful to kill people of other nations and take their land.

But the biggest scriptural support for Christian bigotry is here:

Quote:

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Daniel 3:28-29
Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2 John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed

Philippians 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

These verses all say that there is only one true religion, and anyone who doesn't follow it is evil; according to 2 John 1:10 Christians shouldn't even let non-Christians into their houses. If that's not bigotry I don't know what is. And it's a central tenet of traditional Christianity. I realize there are Christians like Wildernesse who do not accept that doctrine. That's one reason I don't generalize, and I'll let the Christians work out who is a True Christian and who isn't.

As to proving I'm not a bigot, you'll just have to read my posts.

wildernesse · 04-22-2003, 11:23 AM

The last I heard, the GHW Bush comment had no independent verification outside of American Atheists. I would be interested to know who this "reporter" is and who it works for.

--tibac

Godless Dave · 04-22-2003, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse
How did the years of hatred spewed by the Church pass me by and allow me to love the precious and wonderful human that is Rufus?

You tell us!

Biff the unclean · 04-22-2003, 11:27 AM

So are you saying that the United Methodist church does not interpret the teachings of Jesus to mean that Atheists are damned?

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04-22-2003, 10:45 AM	#82
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	I think the implication is that he speaks for the government. His implication, that is. By making such a statement while in office.

04-22-2003, 10:51 AM	#84
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	"I am not here for the Gentiles" I may have that a little wrong...

04-22-2003, 11:23 AM	#88
wildernesse Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,578	The last I heard, the GHW Bush comment had no independent verification outside of American Atheists. I would be interested to know who this "reporter" is and who it works for. --tibac

04-22-2003, 11:27 AM	#90
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	So are you saying that the United Methodist church does not interpret the teachings of Jesus to mean that Atheists are damned?

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