Amos

So tell me please if heaven is the possible reward of secular humanism?

Shake

:banghead: First off, it's "fuel." This is the computer age, there is no excuse for poor spelling.

Oh, so you're just "doing" the Xianity thing for the rewards? Does not your book preach of doing things for your fellow man out of the goodness of your heart? Didn't Jesus supposedly say something to the effect of, "that which you did for the least of them, you did for me"? Obviously, you know nothing of humanism and it's causes. A better society is reward enough. Do you always do things for some "reward," Amos? If so, then I truly feel sorry for you, because it shows how self-centered you are.

Let me put this another way. You say that I do not get any rewards and it's a waste of my time and energy. Fine. That's your belief, and you are welcome to it. My belief is that your going to church, getting baptised, saying prayers, etc. has no rewards and is a monumental waste of time and energy. So who's right? You're not going to convince me that you are, and nor can I convince you that I am. I believe you are wrong, but no, I cannot prove it, and neither can you prove that I am wrong. So let's drop it.

Whatever!

Capnkirk, I'm glad to see that I understood your point. I hope you see that I was trying to show that there is a something to offer deconverters. Atheism and humanism are not mutually exclusive. In fact, there are even humanists who are (gasp!) theists. A secular humanist is just one whose beliefs are not hampered by the existence of some deity.

I agree capn, that we need to focus on similarities. I tried to pick an example that I thought would have broad similarities: benefitting mankind by erasing prejudice, pain, hunger, etc.

rdalin

Piffle. There is no heaven. There is no hell. There's just our life on earth. Secular humanists wish to make it possible for all humans to live the best possible life on earth; we don't spend our time fantasizing about what will happen after we die. We know what happens after we die: we don't exist any more except in the memories of our loved ones and friends.

capnkirk

Amos,

You're betting on the 'come' if you're counting on heaven for your reward. Careful you don't crap out!! (Doesn't your NT warn against doing good in order to earn credits toward heaven? Seems I remember that the only acceptable basis for doing good was from the goodness of your own heart!)

So in that respect, the secular humanist better represents the xtian ideal than Amos does, in that he expects NO reward, but does it anyway! Touche!

capnkirk

I just wanted to help you (and others) to draw that realization into sharper focus, and to recognize how to use SH and similar things to "witness" (to use a JW term) to those who are leaving their flock that the ground they stand on and the (to them) uncertain unknown they are beginning to explore are not alien after all.

As for the second (salad-bar) quote, what I said was not meant personally. I recognized that your reference reflected a place many of us have had to pass through to get here and wanted to provoke a little introspection on the part of some of us who have not quite quit rebelling yet.

Amos

Not at all. A great many Catholics enjoy and have enjoyed heaven on earth. This i sa general theme that runs in many of my posts and is the reason for my response above. In the mean time, those of us who do not can enjoy communion with the saints in heaven.

capnkirk

So have a great many opium smokers. Delusion is still delusion no matter how hou get your endorphins.

Keep posting, Amos. If just to keep reminding us why we are athiests.

villagesmithy

Until about 8 years ago, I was a scientist and an atheist whose world view was that we are purely physical beings, and the universe consists of what we can sense with our 5 physical senses (and our instruments). However, starting in 1995, it seemed that I was led through a series of experiences that eventually resulted in me completely changing my world view. I now KNOW (not believe) that we are spiritual beings temporarily living a physical life. It began when I met a woman, and she and I instantly knew that we already knew each other. It was WEIRD! Then another friend of mine started telling me that if you drew something on a piece of paper, he could tell you what it was without seeing it. I decided to humor him, and he, I, and the woman I had met did an ESP experiment. The results were ASTOUNDING! They blew away my world view. My woman friend was able to tell both of us not only EXACTLY what we each had drawn, but every emotion and thought and physical sensation connected with it. This prompted me to begin reading about subjects such as remote viewing, and I took a course in transcendental meditation (TM). The regular practice of TM seemed to develop and "tune in" a sixth sense. I also bought some meditation tapes from The Monroe Institue and used them for a few months. As a result, I have had some truly incredible spiritual experiences over the last few years that have been so vivid that I cannot deny they were real. They haven't led me to organized religion, but they certainly changed my world view! So when I hear someone question why religion has been a part of human civilization for hundreds of thousands of years, my first thought is: maybe we're really talking about "spirituality", and maybe it's because there's something to it. Maybe people haven't just been idiots or scared of dying for so many years. I tend to believe it's because in every civilization, people have had these incredible spiritual experiences that cannot be denied. So you people who consider themselves so scientific, my question to you is this: how can you draw a valid conclusion if you haven't examined all the evidence? If you haven't taken a course in meditation, and practiced it at least twice a day for at least a year with an open mind for new possibilities, then I submit that you don't have all the facts. And without all the facts, the most brilliant scientist in the world can create the most brilliant hypotheses to explain everything, but he will never get it right.

Amos

The spiritual world does not exist in reality but only appears to exist as seen from our human nature where we are the illusion -- and therefore our eternal mind comes across as a spiritual world. In other words, in heaven (which is when we take up residence in our subconscious mind) the supernatural does not exist because it has become one with the old natural world through understanding.

capnkirk

Amos,

Are you a Catholic? ...or a Hindu?

Your quote is a pretty good description of what the Hindus call maya.