Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bible Humper · 11-18-2002, 12:34 PM

That's the point, Kenny. How many sects are there with their own ideas regarding what is "really meant" again?

There are myriad ways to interpret any particular passage, so it is up to the church authorities to tell you what was said.

Why is the church automatically right and Amos, or whoever else has a new interpretation, automatically wrong?

11-18-2002, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kenny:


“But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed!” (Galatians 1:8)

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: Kenny ]

Kenny, I think Paul is preaching my Gospel and that is not the same Gospel as he preached in Corinth. The Galations we free from the law etc.

It is out of respect for you and your faith that I am reluctant to post here. Your faith is beautiful and serves you well and it is not really right for me to remove from it.

On the other hand, this is a philosophy board where the philosophy of religion is allowed to be brought into the open.

Devilnaut · 11-18-2002, 05:36 PM

Paging Dr Amos, check your PM's.

I noticed your response Kenny and I'll dig out the statistics soon and we can have a look and decide what they mean.

GeoTheo · 11-18-2002, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sapient:
For Geotheo, and his belief that only atheists believe in a sadistic god....

]

I just met you but now that you posted a link to Landover Baptist I no longer take you seriously and will ignore you from now on.

Jobar · 11-18-2002, 06:07 PM

GeoTheo, that's Vanderzyden's schtick. I think you should give him credit for that particular dodge.

Kenny- "That’s a very convenient hermeneutic, Amos, since it allows you to make the Scriptures say whatever you want them to say. "

My irony-meter was unplugged, and in another room- and you still bent the bloody needle. Tell me, Kenny, do you think that Christ came bearing not peace but a sword, or did he come to teach us to turn the other cheek and love our enemies?

GeoTheo · 11-18-2002, 06:29 PM

Good stuff Kenny,
I am going through a crisis of faith right now but the gospel still really resonates with my heart.
You may wonder why I came here at such a time. The reason is I want to look death right in the face and not flinch. If there is no God I want to know.
No sense lying to myself. I am however losing my patience with this website. If there was actually no God it would seem that atheists would therfore be wiser than theists. But, in my experience in posting here for two years most make a pretty poor showing for themselves. Though most are intelligent, articulate, and seem educated, for the most part they fulfill the stereotype I had before I came here. They appear mainly to be angry at God. Posters here seem to spend most of their energy attacking Christianity. This behavior on their part fits perfectly with a Christian worldview. Christianity being the one true religion, atheists would find that the most threatening. If they were merely angry at God, anger would palpably permeate their posts about Christianity and it does. Also, it is very obvious to me that there is a great amount of distortion of Christianity being advanced. I am a person with serious doubts, but I know what Christianity is all about. I know what Christians believe and what type of people they are. Little of the crap (and it clearly is crap) posted here about Christianity is true. Even if I were to reject Christianity, I would not believe 90% of the crap people here post about it. I simply know better. Christians are not evil people and Christianity, with all it's flaws, is not an evil religion. People who go to church do so with the idea that it will make them a better person. They want to be better husbands, better wives, better parents, better employees, better employers and better citizens. They want to worship God because, in their experience it has had a very positive and uplifting affect on them in the past. The Christian wants to be a kind and loving person.
So the idea that atheist would want to deny this and distort Christianity, as they clearly do, also fits in with a Christian world view. If thre truly were no God, and atheists were therfore wiser, they should be able to make an impartial, balanced critique of Christianity. I have never seen one here.
(edited for spelling and grammar)

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: GeoTheo ]

Philosoft · 11-18-2002, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kenny:

The fact that the Gospel tends to take root in the hearts of those who are most deeply aware of their need for it should be no surprise;

I know of no such fact. Are there numbers to support this?

Quote:

Finally, not everyone who claims to be a Christian really is a Christian; the NT confirms this as well.

I am deeply curious about how this distinction is made. Obviously, no two sects of Christianity agree on all scriptural interpretations. Is it enough to agree on most doctrines or are there certain ones that are indispensible? Either way, who makes the determination?

Philosoft · 11-18-2002, 06:53 PM

Geo,

Your depiction of atheists as theological misanthropes is darn near offensive. What's more, you know it's untrue. You've seen the atheists here engage in debates with Christians, Muslims, Pagans, even Roman Pantheists. You know a high percentage of theists who post here are Christians. You know a high percentage of atheists here are Americans, Britons, or Australians, who interact with Christians far more than people of other religions. You know Christians here sometimes argue with each other. There are far too many mundane variables in play here for your "atheists hate God" scenario to be even considered plausible. You know this. It's painfully obvious.

If your goal is to reinforce your mistaken preconceptions about atheists, then by all means continue building your strawmen. Otherwise, I suggest you stop fixating on how people say things, and what you think that says about their motives, and pay attention to what is being said. I know you are capable of uncovering the truth amongst all the invective; you've shown that ability before. Try harder.

Devilnaut · 11-18-2002, 07:02 PM

Geo, I would suggest that your observations, if true (though I suspect that they have been subjected to a hint of bias), are not necessarily representative of atheists, as much as they are of internet message boards and atheists who frequent them. Many atheists (I know several) are perfectly happy never discussing religion with anybody and keeping their beliefs completely to themselves.

I also don't think that it's at all fair to label atheists as "angry at God", and frankly you should know better than to do that. Doing this suggests that atheists are being disingenuous about their beliefs. I think that what might strike you as anger is actually arrogance or belligerence, and instead of relating this to the existential status of a deity (because frankly this connection seems tenuous), I would look to other factors.

First thing, as I mentioned earlier, message boards like this attract argumentative folks. Secondly, being a minority with an opinion that is supported by the evidence can certainly easily breed arrogance, and it's easy to see why. Combine these two factors in a message board that has been around the block a few times, with posters who have "been there done that" with regard to theistic arguments, and it isn't tough to find the root of the vibe you're getting.

Perhaps the fact that the bible "predicts" these traits is simply good foresight (as opposed to evidence of a supernatural being)?

Editted to add that this is great advice:

Quote:

Philosoft
Otherwise, I suggest you stop fixating on how people say things, and what you think that says about their motives, and pay attention to what is being said.

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]

Llyricist · 11-18-2002, 07:13 PM

Quote:

By Philosoft

Your depiction of atheists as theological misanthropes is darn near offensive. What's more, you know it's untrue. You've seen the atheists here engage in debates with Christians, Muslims, Pagans, even Roman Pantheists.

I believe you mean polytheists. I hope you know the difference.

And darn near offensive is perhaps a tactful understatement??

11-18-2002, 06:29 PM	#66
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	Good stuff Kenny, I am going through a crisis of faith right now but the gospel still really resonates with my heart. You may wonder why I came here at such a time. The reason is I want to look death right in the face and not flinch. If there is no God I want to know. No sense lying to myself. I am however losing my patience with this website. If there was actually no God it would seem that atheists would therfore be wiser than theists. But, in my experience in posting here for two years most make a pretty poor showing for themselves. Though most are intelligent, articulate, and seem educated, for the most part they fulfill the stereotype I had before I came here. They appear mainly to be angry at God. Posters here seem to spend most of their energy attacking Christianity. This behavior on their part fits perfectly with a Christian worldview. Christianity being the one true religion, atheists would find that the most threatening. If they were merely angry at God, anger would palpably permeate their posts about Christianity and it does. Also, it is very obvious to me that there is a great amount of distortion of Christianity being advanced. I am a person with serious doubts, but I know what Christianity is all about. I know what Christians believe and what type of people they are. Little of the crap (and it clearly is crap) posted here about Christianity is true. Even if I were to reject Christianity, I would not believe 90% of the crap people here post about it. I simply know better. Christians are not evil people and Christianity, with all it's flaws, is not an evil religion. People who go to church do so with the idea that it will make them a better person. They want to be better husbands, better wives, better parents, better employees, better employers and better citizens. They want to worship God because, in their experience it has had a very positive and uplifting affect on them in the past. The Christian wants to be a kind and loving person. So the idea that atheist would want to deny this and distort Christianity, as they clearly do, also fits in with a Christian world view. If thre truly were no God, and atheists were therfore wiser, they should be able to make an impartial, balanced critique of Christianity. I have never seen one here. (edited for spelling and grammar) [ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: GeoTheo ]</p>

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11-18-2002, 12:34 PM	#61
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	That's the point, Kenny. How many sects are there with their own ideas regarding what is "really meant" again? There are myriad ways to interpret any particular passage, so it is up to the church authorities to tell you what was said. Why is the church automatically right and Amos, or whoever else has a new interpretation, automatically wrong?

11-18-2002, 05:36 PM	#63
Devilnaut Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 374	Paging Dr Amos, check your PM's. I noticed your response Kenny and I'll dig out the statistics soon and we can have a look and decide what they mean.

11-18-2002, 06:07 PM	#65
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	GeoTheo, that's Vanderzyden's schtick. I think you should give him credit for that particular dodge. Kenny- "That’s a very convenient hermeneutic, Amos, since it allows you to make the Scriptures say whatever you want them to say. " My irony-meter was unplugged, and in another room- and you still bent the bloody needle. Tell me, Kenny, do you think that Christ came bearing not peace but a sword, or did he come to teach us to turn the other cheek and love our enemies?

11-18-2002, 06:53 PM	#68
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	Geo, Your depiction of atheists as theological misanthropes is darn near offensive. What's more, you know it's untrue. You've seen the atheists here engage in debates with Christians, Muslims, Pagans, even Roman Pantheists. You know a high percentage of theists who post here are Christians. You know a high percentage of atheists here are Americans, Britons, or Australians, who interact with Christians far more than people of other religions. You know Christians here sometimes argue with each other. There are far too many mundane variables in play here for your "atheists hate God" scenario to be even considered plausible. You know this. It's painfully obvious. If your goal is to reinforce your mistaken preconceptions about atheists, then by all means continue building your strawmen. Otherwise, I suggest you stop fixating on how people say things, and what you think that says about their motives, and pay attention to what is being said. I know you are capable of uncovering the truth amongst all the invective; you've shown that ability before. Try harder.

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