Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Page · 04-02-2002, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snatchbalance:
I know that my "gut" feelings often inform me better than my ideas.

Do you have any similar articles supporting female folklore on the siting of a brain in the penis? Seriously, this was fascinating, I read the whole thing.

Cheers!

Ierrellus · 04-03-2002, 12:17 PM

snatchbalance:

Great article on the enteric nervous system! If the serotonin, etc. in this system are not metabolites of brain neurotransmitters, this situation raises more questions about the distribution of controls of physiological functions. The same questions are evident in all attempts to define any mental phenomenon (memory, etc.} as produced by or contained in specific brain locales. This further suggests genetic activity in all neural systems.

John:

Since I am mentally ill, the tricyclics I take affect my sexual disposition. Which head is this brain in anyway?

Ierrellus

excreationist · 04-03-2002, 08:57 PM

About human-type AI in the future:

From Popular Science - Flash Forward - Summer 2001:

Quote:

Ray Kurzweil:
"It will take a lot of computing by today's standards. I estimate that about 20 million billion calculations per second are required to simulate the human brain, but by 2019 that should cost $1000. Though having the requisite power is a necessary but not sufficient condition for creating human-level intelligence. We also need the computer software and the algorithms.
....
By 2029, although computers will routinely pass apparently valid forms of the Turing Test, controversy will persist about whether or not machine intelligence equals human intelligence in all of its diversity. But for a computer program to convincingly respond, it would have to be as complex as a human brain.
...
Machines will claim to be conscious in 30 years. These claims will be largely accepted. Some philosophers will demur, saying that you cannot be conscious less you're based on DNA-guided protein synthesis. But in my view, the idea of humans merging with their own technology is just the next step in evolution, and represents a continuation of human-machine civilization. By 2099, there will be a strong trend toward a merger of human thinking with the world of machine intelligence."

John Searle:
"A computer that's defined as just manipulating symbols won't do. You have to have causation, or in other words the symbols it manipulates have to mean something to the computer - but they only mean something to the programmers and us. The symbols in the computer mean nothing at all to the computer. So can a system think solely by virtue of manipulating symbols? Of course not.
...
I can already program my computer so that it says that it is conscious. But that has nothing to do with whether or not it really is conscious. What the computer does is a simulation of these processes.
...
Sure [there could be a way to make a machine that thinks], if we built something that was like our brains. The brain is a machine, so I don't see any reason we couldn't build an artificial brain. We may not be far from realizing that, and I don't see any obstacle in principle. But I'm not holding my breath."

(On page 47)

Quote:

IBM plans to push computational power to new limits by using a million processors working in parallel. If successful, its Blue Gene project would be capable of 8 million simultaneous threads of computation, compared with the maximum of 5,000 today. The final machine will have 64 racks and be 500 times as fast as any computer today. Blue Gene will be used to provide researchers with a better understanding of diseases.
[picture says: processor - 1 Gigaflop; chip - 32 Gigaflops; Board - 2 Teraflops; Tower - 16 Teraflops; Blue Gene - 1 Pentaflop]

Ierrellus · 04-04-2002, 06:45 AM

excreationist:

Being an old hippie, I love the name Blue Gene Project. As usual, you deliver pertinent information to my project.

When I started this thread, I was biased against AI from my interpretation of genetics. Now I see aspects of AI which I did not consider. I agree that a computerized simulation of the brain is not only possible, but forthcoming.

The brain in any human being is a product of genetic structuring. AI might start its investigations of brain processes on a molecular level, then move to cellular indications, etc. It must of course solve the nature vs nurture connundrum in order to include environmental contributions to physiological changes. The environments studied would be the interface between internal (to the organism} and external
chemical reactions.

At this point I am trying to decide if the DNA traits that determine structure and adaptability potential for an organism are all inclusive in the DNA molecule and are manifested upon requirement or if they are added with requirement. My position right now is that the DNA molecule includes all potentials for any specific organism. Environment evokes them.

Ierrellus

snatchbalance · 04-04-2002, 09:15 AM

Ierrellus

Quote:

My position right now is that the DNA molecule includes all potentials for any specific organism. Environment evokes them.

I think most evolutionary biologist would agree. I read, someplace or another, that it is pointless to talk about genes in isolation. The traits expressed, within set limits, will always be a product of the environment.

Snatchbalance

Bill · 04-05-2002, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ierrellus:
At this point I am trying to decide if the DNA traits that determine structure and adaptability potential for an organism are all inclusive in the DNA molecule and are manifested upon requirement or if they are added with requirement. My position right now is that the DNA molecule includes all potentials for any specific organism. Environment evokes them.

So far as I understand things, DNA cannot be "added with requirement." Frankly, that is classic Lamarkianism, and there is no real proof (and substantial disproof) for Lamarkianism.

So, yes, "the DNA traits that determine structure and adaptability potential for an organism are all inclusive in the DNA molecule and are manifested upon requirement," but you must also add to that description the fact that DNA mutates over time, and since the cells in our bodies are constantly replicating, our DNA can mutate (to some small degree) within our own lifetimes. But real mutations generally occur during conception, when the DNA of two very distinct adults are "mixed and matched" in order to produce an offspring. The real key to species survival is the "structure and adaptability potential for" an organism's OFFSPRING. It is the operation of natural selection upon a plethora of OFFSPRING which defines the "structure and adaptability potential for" any species.

== Bill

Bill · 04-05-2002, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Imhotehp:
this is sorta off topic and everything, but could you describe what exactly E=mc^2 is to me? Right now I think it is supposed to describe how much energy you get when you convert matter into energy.

See <a href="http://www.rubberworksinc.com/assistance.htm" target="_blank">THIS PAGE</a>, where it gives the formula with an appropriate explanation:

Quote:

E = mc� where E is energy in ergs, m is the mass of the matter in grams, and c is the speed of light in centimeters per second (c� = 9 x 1020)

== Bill

John Page · 04-05-2002, 01:38 PM

All:

There are known gene switches, operated by hormones etc. This would indicate that there is some intra-generational genetic adaptability, supporting weak Lamarkianism.

Cheers!

Imhotehp · 04-05-2002, 02:30 PM

Hey thanks bill!

Ierrellus · 04-07-2002, 04:26 AM

bovinepomorphy--
According to Zeno, "To an ox, God is an ox." This reminds me of a neat cartoon that showed street rats staring at a poster of Mickey Mouse; and a small rat says, "Look, Mom, there's God!" And since the first ever bacterium did not have a book of Deuteronomy, how did it "know" what to eat and what not to eat?

We tend to pattern our ideas of what other organisms "know" on the limits of what we know. The search for precursors of mental content in a physical condition is, by definition, an anthopomorphic exercize. To escape the antropormorphic stimga, with its final end in solypsism, we must determine how internal molecules "recognize" external raw materials for their maintenance and growth.

Within this "recognition" and its retention lies the possibilty of finding origins of mind. IMO, the mind of the bacterium is in its structural necessities as imposed on its environment. This includes identification of
nutrients in an environment by chemical activity within an organism.

Ierrellus

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04-03-2002, 12:17 PM	#62
Ierrellus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,082	snatchbalance: Great article on the enteric nervous system! If the serotonin, etc. in this system are not metabolites of brain neurotransmitters, this situation raises more questions about the distribution of controls of physiological functions. The same questions are evident in all attempts to define any mental phenomenon (memory, etc.} as produced by or contained in specific brain locales. This further suggests genetic activity in all neural systems. John: Since I am mentally ill, the tricyclics I take affect my sexual disposition. Which head is this brain in anyway? Ierrellus

04-04-2002, 06:45 AM	#64
Ierrellus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,082	excreationist: Being an old hippie, I love the name Blue Gene Project. As usual, you deliver pertinent information to my project. When I started this thread, I was biased against AI from my interpretation of genetics. Now I see aspects of AI which I did not consider. I agree that a computerized simulation of the brain is not only possible, but forthcoming. The brain in any human being is a product of genetic structuring. AI might start its investigations of brain processes on a molecular level, then move to cellular indications, etc. It must of course solve the nature vs nurture connundrum in order to include environmental contributions to physiological changes. The environments studied would be the interface between internal (to the organism} and external chemical reactions. At this point I am trying to decide if the DNA traits that determine structure and adaptability potential for an organism are all inclusive in the DNA molecule and are manifested upon requirement or if they are added with requirement. My position right now is that the DNA molecule includes all potentials for any specific organism. Environment evokes them. Ierrellus

04-05-2002, 01:38 PM	#68
John Page Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: US Posts: 5,495	All: There are known gene switches, operated by hormones etc. This would indicate that there is some intra-generational genetic adaptability, supporting weak Lamarkianism. Cheers!

04-05-2002, 02:30 PM	#69
Imhotehp Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The milky way galaxy Posts: 159	Hey thanks bill!

04-07-2002, 04:26 AM	#70
Ierrellus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,082	bovinepomorphy-- According to Zeno, "To an ox, God is an ox." This reminds me of a neat cartoon that showed street rats staring at a poster of Mickey Mouse; and a small rat says, "Look, Mom, there's God!" And since the first ever bacterium did not have a book of Deuteronomy, how did it "know" what to eat and what not to eat? We tend to pattern our ideas of what other organisms "know" on the limits of what we know. The search for precursors of mental content in a physical condition is, by definition, an anthopomorphic exercize. To escape the antropormorphic stimga, with its final end in solypsism, we must determine how internal molecules "recognize" external raw materials for their maintenance and growth. Within this "recognition" and its retention lies the possibilty of finding origins of mind. IMO, the mind of the bacterium is in its structural necessities as imposed on its environment. This includes identification of nutrients in an environment by chemical activity within an organism. Ierrellus

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