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01-22-2003, 03:40 PM | #101 | |||
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Think on that ! |
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01-22-2003, 03:56 PM | #102 |
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Goddam,
I knew I'ld left something out. When judging the entire justifiability of action or inaction, the context of the whole person becomes an acute question. Blue Metal is condemned by her own negligent and egotistical attitudes; however, Ronin also brought up a point which has not been adequately answered. There are a couple of principles that come in play in all such situations: Judge not, lest ye be judged and There, but for the grace of (a non-existent) God, go I However, judging is often necessary; there is nothing as destructive as an "Anything goes" policy. Obviously, we are all only human ---- but this doesn't mean an abdication of responsibility, but it also is a warning regarding self-righteousness. This should have all being in my last long post, but I forgot, my brain still being on holidays. |
01-22-2003, 04:43 PM | #103 | |
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I'd be happy to clarify anything I posted. DC |
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01-22-2003, 05:06 PM | #104 | |||
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I'm a liar. I ahd more to say...
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The questions then revolve around how to acheive the best state of affairs and what is the best state of affairs. As far as I can tell those considerations did not come up. I believe that if anything was done here that was less moral than some other choice it was that teh actions appeared to only have a punitive motive rather than a productive or a reformative one. You say that "had Blue Metal actually being chucked out of college, it would have been for something that Blue Metal knew in advance to be wrong". Nobody disagress with that. However, a better outcome is that Blue_metal understands that she did wrong and learns to accept responsibility. What good is Blue_Metal's getting kicked out of college if she hasn't learned anything? Quote:
Would we call it wrong had he been "outed"? I think many more would be saying "Yes" to this question. Quote:
If (and I say if) there was an error in mroal reasoning it was that there wasn't enough consideration of the best outcome. DC |
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01-22-2003, 05:19 PM | #105 | ||
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I made a whole long post, and an additional post, and you want me to bore you and everyone else to death some more ? Getting back to being serious, I was trying to fulfull your own stated aims of drawing out as many different ethical strands as possible. Plus you see before you the Trying-Very-Hard-To-Be-Impersonal-And-Terribly-Tactful Gurdur. I think the thing that bothered me the most about the sub-conversation between you and Writer@Large was that it simply neglected the SecWeb community as an issue (brought out very well by Livius drusus); still, other sub-conversations here have also bothered me --- I found JennaD's argument to be both woefully inadequate, as well as contradictory in terms of her other actions, as well as bordering dangerously on being judgmentally emotive without reason--- but even so, it was her concerns, and she had every right to post them. Bree answered her well. And also I found other people contradictory. I see you've made another post; I have some strong opinions on what you've written in your next post, so I'll answer that in a jiffy Quote:
As you yourself have pointed out, actions, obligations and consequences are essential to consideration, and there is such a thing as seeing a job done right to the end. Till my next post, answering your other, Gurdur |
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01-22-2003, 05:22 PM | #106 | |
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In general cases of deception with a pattern, and that might not be the case that you mention, Blue_Metal, I would consult with the deceiver of my intention to report on the deceiver, so that the deceiver can share information on possibly too harsh consequences from others. The reason for this, is: .) one entrusts in this forum for advice on how to cover up a small cheating, one is in formative years and under pressure facing bad solutions and good solutions, and I wouldn't use vulnerable information -that I am privy about- to harm the seeker of help; .) the seeker of help needs instead a kind guidance in a vast world of shaky morals (see today's newspaper, for example). |
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01-22-2003, 05:30 PM | #107 | |
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To my mind, you are concentrating on the possible-reformation aspect at the cost of the protection-of-society aspect. Given Blue Metal's attitudes, I would estimate the chances of actual reform at zilch - zero - for at least a couple of years; she seems to be practicing the arts of how to get away with things, and emotional manipulation, as busily as possible. Sakpo might well have thought the Dean should know of Blue Metal's attitudes; and while I myself would not have done what he did in this actual situation, I find automatic condemnation of his action to be completely erroneous and vacuous. The wider community has every right to be protected from those who would prey off it; the question is not whether it would be wrong to inform on Blue Metal's attitudes --- since they affect her present situation and futuure actions --- the question is whether it was worth it in this instance, and also whether Sakpo fulfilled his other obligations in doing so. Punitive action is not always only to be considered for its putative reformative aspects, but for social protection as well. I'll do the other points seperately. |
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01-22-2003, 05:38 PM | #108 | |
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In any non-trivial form of intersubjective, humanist ethics, there must be rockbottom principles --- even though they are arbitrarily chosen. For example, it is easy to justify --- from terms of consequences and in terms of internal coherency of the ethical system --- within an intersubjective ethical system based on the fact that morality is non-objective, the following adopted ground premises: Racism is absolutely wrong Malignant, active sociopathology is absolutely wrong etc., etc., etfuckingc. I for one am extremely glad of Schindler's arbitrarily-chosen bedrock principle that murdering Jews for fun and profit was absolutely wrong. "Absolute" here of course is used within the human ethical system, and not as an external legitimization of that system --- but it functions well also as a legitimization of that system in comparison with other systems with regards to consequences |
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01-22-2003, 05:50 PM | #109 | |||
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And lastly:
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I mean, one must take the possibility into account before delivering moral opinions; I did so, you did so, what's to excuse sloppy, morally-tendentious laziness here ? The only question is the issue of all consequences of being "outed"; I covered that beforehand. Quote:
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BTW, as soon as I've had my dinner, I'll be writing another post on what I see often happening on SecWeb every time some ethical question comes up. Don't blame me, you asked for it. |
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01-22-2003, 06:11 PM | #110 | |
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When I think I'm going to be repeating myself thats when I bow out. Let's see if we are there yet. DC |
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