FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > IIDB ARCHIVE: 200X-2003, PD 2007 > IIDB Philosophical Forums (PRIOR TO JUN-2003)
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 05:55 AM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-22-2003, 03:40 PM   #101
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Buggered if I know
Posts: 12,410
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally posted by Blue_Metal

My main problem was that Sakpo didn't think that it was my business and that he didn't need to inform me of his actions.
And ? So ? You're wrong --- whether Sakpo's action was fully justified or not (and there are all sorts of ramifications, see my post just above), he didn't owe you warning in advance --- and in any case, you had already been warned previously by others that your action was wrong.
Quote:
..... but do you also think I should have been outed to my family? You don't know how religious they are. They could have done something like taking me to the priest for an exorcism
Happened to me twice.
Quote:
or they could have cast me from the family and cut off all contact with me.
I ran away from home at 15, and didn't have a family to pay for my college.
Think on that !
Gurdur is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 03:56 PM   #102
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Buggered if I know
Posts: 12,410
Default

Goddam,
I knew I'ld left something out.

When judging the entire justifiability of action or inaction, the context of the whole person becomes an acute question.

Blue Metal is condemned by her own negligent and egotistical attitudes;
however, Ronin also brought up a point which has not been adequately answered.

There are a couple of principles that come in play in all such situations:

Judge not, lest ye be judged
and
There, but for the grace of (a non-existent) God, go I

However, judging is often necessary; there is nothing as destructive as an "Anything goes" policy.
Obviously, we are all only human ---- but this doesn't mean an abdication of responsibility, but it also is a warning regarding self-righteousness.
This should have all being in my last long post, but I forgot, my brain still being on holidays.
Gurdur is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 04:43 PM   #103
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: U.S.
Posts: 4,171
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Gurdur
Let justice be done though the heavens may fall

The argument between DigitalChicken and Writer@Large bothers me, so as A Bear Of Very Little Brain, I'ld like to see a bit more pedantic precision and exegesis.
Can you be more specific? I am basically done with this thread being that I think everything has been said.

I'd be happy to clarify anything I posted.

DC
Rusting Car Bumper is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 05:06 PM   #104
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: U.S.
Posts: 4,171
Default

I'm a liar. I ahd more to say...

Quote:
Originally posted by Gurdur
Did Sakpo owe Blue Metal a warning before his action ?
No,
for the simple reasons of Blue Metal's own rather considerable self-pity, self-justication and smugness in what is a very real case of non-pecadillo plagiarism,
and for the fact that had Blue Metal actually being chucked out of college, it would have been for something that Blue Metal knew in advance to be wrong,
and moreover it would have not stuffed up Blue Metal's life forever
(as a side-note, and as an academic myself, I do not agree with the suggestion she should have been blackballed from every other college --- most people deserve the chance for redemption)
I strongly disagree with your take here. If one is going to take some form of corrective action then it implies that the actor believes that some state of affairs is better than another and it implies the actor believes that some "good" can be acheived.

The questions then revolve around how to acheive the best state of affairs and what is the best state of affairs. As far as I can tell those considerations did not come up.

I believe that if anything was done here that was less moral than some other choice it was that teh actions appeared to only have a punitive motive rather than a productive or a reformative one.

You say that "had Blue Metal actually being chucked out of college, it would have been for something that Blue Metal knew in advance to be wrong". Nobody disagress with that. However, a better outcome is that Blue_metal understands that she did wrong and learns to accept responsibility. What good is Blue_Metal's getting kicked out of college if she hasn't learned anything?

Quote:
Was Sakpo's action wrong ?
That depends on a whole horde of factors, but as has been said by Diana, Bree and Writer@Large, it is impossible to claim it was automatically and absolutely wrong.
Of course. It's impossible to claim that most anything is automatically and absolutely wrong. That's a trivial fact.

Would we call it wrong had he been "outed"? I think many more would be saying "Yes" to this question.

Quote:
Was Sakpo's action right ?
Some have suggested it was absolutely right; I disagree completely --- for an interesting case of just why ramrod rectitude can be very wrong at times, see this thread here, where Hugo Holbling asked regarding a real-life situation as to whether he should inform (and it was part of his job), when the results of his actions would have meant an instant dishonourable discharge from the armed forces with consequent great problems for civilian life for the offenders.
I agree as well. However, the above questions are really simply variations of the same question about "What is the right thing to do" and/or "How do I acheive the best outcome"?

If (and I say if) there was an error in mroal reasoning it was that there wasn't enough consideration of the best outcome.

DC
Rusting Car Bumper is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 05:19 PM   #105
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Buggered if I know
Posts: 12,410
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by DigitalChicken

Can you be more specific?
You're teasing me, right ?
I made a whole long post, and an additional post, and you want me to bore you and everyone else to death some more ?


Getting back to being serious, I was trying to fulfull your own stated aims of drawing out as many different ethical strands as possible.
Plus you see before you the Trying-Very-Hard-To-Be-Impersonal-And-Terribly-Tactful Gurdur.

I think the thing that bothered me the most about the sub-conversation between you and Writer@Large was that it simply neglected the SecWeb community as an issue (brought out very well by Livius drusus); still, other sub-conversations here have also bothered me --- I found JennaD's argument to be both woefully inadequate, as well as contradictory in terms of her other actions, as well as bordering dangerously on being judgmentally emotive without reason--- but even so, it was her concerns, and she had every right to post them. Bree answered her well.
And also I found other people contradictory.

I see you've made another post; I have some strong opinions on what you've written in your next post, so I'll answer that in a jiffy
Quote:
I am basically done with this thread being that I think everything has been said.
Not to be critical of you (I loved your post on the MLK holiday in the PD, BTW), but aren't you a tad lacking in stamina ?
As you yourself have pointed out, actions, obligations and consequences are essential to consideration, and there is such a thing as seeing a job done right to the end.
Till my next post, answering your other,
Gurdur
Gurdur is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 05:22 PM   #106
Ion
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 2,817
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Blue_Metal
My main problem was that Sakpo didn't think that it was my business and that he didn't need to inform me of his actions.
...
Blue
I wouldn't have snitched on you.

In general cases of deception with a pattern, and that might not be the case that you mention, Blue_Metal, I would consult with the deceiver of my intention to report on the deceiver, so that the deceiver can share information on possibly too harsh consequences from others.


The reason for this, is:

.) one entrusts in this forum for advice on how to cover up a small cheating, one is in formative years and under pressure facing bad solutions and good solutions, and I wouldn't use vulnerable information -that I am privy about- to harm the seeker of help;

.) the seeker of help needs instead a kind guidance in a vast world of shaky morals (see today's newspaper, for example).
Ion is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 05:30 PM   #107
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Buggered if I know
Posts: 12,410
Default

First off:

Quote:
Originally posted by DigitalChicken
....
I strongly disagree with your take here. If one is going to take some form of corrective action then it implies that the actor believes that some state of affairs is better than another and it implies the actor believes that some "good" can be acheived.

The questions then revolve around how to acheive the best state of affairs and what is the best state of affairs. As far as I can tell those considerations did not come up.

I believe that if anything was done here that was less moral than some other choice it was that teh actions appeared to only have a punitive motive rather than a productive or a reformative one.
I strongly disagree with your disagreement.

To my mind, you are concentrating on the possible-reformation aspect at the cost of the protection-of-society aspect.

Given Blue Metal's attitudes, I would estimate the chances of actual reform at zilch - zero - for at least a couple of years; she seems to be practicing the arts of how to get away with things, and emotional manipulation, as busily as possible.
Sakpo might well have thought the Dean should know of Blue Metal's attitudes; and while I myself would not have done what he did in this actual situation, I find automatic condemnation of his action to be completely erroneous and vacuous.

The wider community has every right to be protected from those who would prey off it; the question is not whether it would be wrong to inform on Blue Metal's attitudes --- since they affect her present situation and futuure actions --- the question is whether it was worth it in this instance, and also whether Sakpo fulfilled his other obligations in doing so.

Punitive action is not always only to be considered for its putative reformative aspects, but for social protection as well.

I'll do the other points seperately.
Gurdur is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 05:38 PM   #108
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Buggered if I know
Posts: 12,410
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by DigitalChicken
[......
Of course. It's impossible to claim that most anything is automatically and absolutely wrong. That's a trivial fact.
I could not disagree more.

In any non-trivial form of intersubjective, humanist ethics, there must be rockbottom principles --- even though they are arbitrarily chosen.

For example, it is easy to justify --- from terms of consequences and in terms of internal coherency of the ethical system --- within an intersubjective ethical system based on the fact that morality is non-objective, the following adopted ground premises:

Racism is absolutely wrong

Malignant, active sociopathology is absolutely wrong


etc., etc., etfuckingc.

I for one am extremely glad of Schindler's arbitrarily-chosen bedrock principle that murdering Jews for fun and profit was absolutely wrong.

"Absolute" here of course is used within the human ethical system, and not as an external legitimization of that system --- but it functions well also as a legitimization of that system in comparison with other systems with regards to consequences
Gurdur is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 05:50 PM   #109
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Buggered if I know
Posts: 12,410
Default

And lastly:

Quote:
Originally posted by DigitalChicken
.....
Would we call it wrong had he been "outed"? I think many more would be saying "Yes" to this question.
Then they'ld be full of crap, no ?
I mean, one must take the possibility into account before delivering moral opinions; I did so, you did so, what's to excuse sloppy, morally-tendentious laziness here ?

The only question is the issue of all consequences of being "outed"; I covered that beforehand.

Quote:
I agree as well. However, the above questions are really simply variations of the same question about "What is the right thing to do" and/or "How do I acheive the best outcome"?
So sue me, but I think it was necessary to draw out aspects far more than was done previously.

Quote:
If (and I say if) there was an error in mroal reasoning it was that there wasn't enough consideration of the best outcome.
I think certain areas were completely neglected; notably and most importantly, the areas that livius drusus and Bree covered.

BTW, as soon as I've had my dinner, I'll be writing another post on what I see often happening on SecWeb every time some ethical question comes up.

Don't blame me, you asked for it.
Gurdur is offline  
Old 01-22-2003, 06:11 PM   #110
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: U.S.
Posts: 4,171
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Gurdur

Not to be critical of you (I loved your post on the MLK holiday in the PD, BTW), but aren't you a tad lacking in stamina ?
As you yourself have pointed out, actions, obligations and consequences are essential to consideration, and there is such a thing as seeing a job done right to the end.
Till my next post, answering your other,
Gurdur
Hehe. You are correct. :notworthy

When I think I'm going to be repeating myself thats when I bow out. Let's see if we are there yet.

DC
Rusting Car Bumper is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:10 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.