Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dargo · 03-20-2003, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xian

If baloo was serious about giving God a chance, he would maximize his test to be as credible as possible. just my opinion.

I think this test is intended as a minimum requirement for proof of the supernatural. Obviously something more dramatic (god pulling the sky back for example) would work even better. However, Baloo is not willing to accept anything less as proof of god. Since no deity has been able and willing to fulfil even this simple test, it would be rather silly to expect something more improbable to happen. Baloo is trying to be open minded by giving god(s) a simple way to prove their existance while ruling out the possibilties of coincidence, misinterpreted data, or trickery.

xian · 03-20-2003, 04:24 PM

but for reasons I already cited clearly, his test is faulty becuase it is not genuine. though Balloo himself seems like a genuine and a nice guy, his test is not.

keyser_soze · 03-20-2003, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xian
but for reasons I already cited clearly, his test is faulty becuase it is not genuine. though Balloo himself seems like a genuine and a nice guy, his test is not.

How is it not? It's so simple as to be ridiculous.

"God, creator of the known universe, of quantum mechanics and all things complex, please be so kind as to give me the 32 digits that just popped up. You can even peek over my shoulder god. I know you are all busy making sure that we only take virgins captive, and that's all groovy and stuff, but could you step forward in time a few centuries and give this nice young man a freaking bone?"

It would seem a valid prayer. So what if it's not the usual christian prayer of "God if you're there, give me a sign by doing nothing"

Sheesh, for someone with such faith in the benevolent god of the OT, you sure aren't giving him much credit. I mean, to the guy who created the world in a day, I should think this one would be a gimmee!

keyser_soze · 03-20-2003, 04:46 PM

For that matter, he can just reach his blood soaked arms right into baloo's head and MAKE him believe. After all, he is the potter, and he makes one as he wants...Is that not correct? And since he wants to save everyone, why should he not do his duty?

xian · 03-20-2003, 08:57 PM

i gave a very detailed argument as to the fault in his test. all you have done is god-rant and ask questions not relating to the logic of my argument. you haven't addressed my argument at all. i can only hope that baloo will return to this thread. i would love to see his comments on this.

HRG · 03-21-2003, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus
Originally posted by HRG

I'm afraid that you suffer from a misunderstanding. It is quite legitimate to ask a question under the temporary assumption that a statement X is correct, without having to accept X uncritically. Such an assumption may even be the start of a reductio ad absurdum argument against X, if one follows by showing that the consequences of X are absurd or not present in the real world.

X in our case is "There is a God who cares about each of us individually and wants to contact us" (a standard Christian claim, BTW).

Regards,
HRG.

But this is NOT a "standard Christian claim." Christians "claim," on the authority of Scirpture that God has revealed himself, i.e., contacted us, through his creation, his wor, and through his incarnation in Jesus.

Sorry, in an unbiased debate, Christian Scripture has no more authority than Islamic Scripture, Buddhist Scripture etc.

Assuming for a moment that the Bible is correct, this only means that he has contacted those who were present at the alleged miracles etc. They in turn contacted others, who contacted still others ..... and now you contact me, claiming to carry the word of your God.

Sorry, contacts are direct.

Quote:

We deny that he can or must be found independently of these means.

Then you agree that he doesn't want to contact any non-Christian, including myself ? For an omnipotent being, wanting to do X is equivalent to doing X.

Quote:

Your evaluation of "X" is based on your assumtion of personal autonomy, which excludes God at the very outset.

False, since there are circumstances under which I would believe in the Christian God, there are others under which I would believe in Allah etc.

Quote:

"I" will look for (a) god and see if "I" can find him. Translation, I will evaluate all truth claims, including God's claims,

I haven't heard any "God's claims". I have heard people's claims that they speak for their god. Quite a difference.
[quote]
by my own system and accept/reject them if they satisy me. [/B]
[/quote}
Of course. How else should I have proceeded ? Everyone of us starts with his own system. You yourself used your own system/your autonomy when you presupposed or came to the conclusion that a) a god exists, b) has spoken to us c) through the bible - and thus you had to switch operating systems from your own to the Christian one, as it were.

But (using computer terminology) everyone boots with his own system!

Regards,
HRG.

7thangel · 03-21-2003, 07:59 AM

posted by xian:

so I maintain my original postulation. if Baloo has concluded a cruel God, I totally fail to see how his test is genuine. In my opinion, the door is already shut and his god-check is a front for something already determined. And if God exists, maybe this is why he never gets his answer. WHy would God answer someone who already concluded He was cruel? I see no logical reason why God would communicate with Baloo under this pretext.

Absolutely right, xian! I very much wondered why baloo should be making all the rules and condition. His post is a show of the ignorance of godhead. Else, Baloo is just kidding. I do not know which is which.

7thangel · 03-21-2003, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by keyser_soze
For that matter, he can just reach his blood soaked arms right into baloo's head and MAKE him believe. After all, he is the potter, and he makes one as he wants...Is that not correct? And since he wants to save everyone, why should he not do his duty?

God can indeed do whatever he wills, being the potter. But in order to show, and then for us to know, that man cannot do in his own hands the right things such scenario needs to exists. That those ignorant of God remanins ignorant of God. And further, this thread, shows that we are indeed just clay -- That is what I learn from this thread.

Look, if you truly understand that God is the "POTTER," who are you, as a clay, to demand? This itself is a faulty argument; as if the computer could demand that it be made of INTEL chips.

By the way, baloo's challenge makes the same faulty argument. For if we truly know God there is no need of other proof of Him. If Baloo knew that God is good, what is the purpose of asking other proofs? And seeing that baloo had no intention to be under the will of God, what is the point for God to give him further proof?

keyser_soze · 03-21-2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
God can indeed do whatever he wills, being the potter. But in order to show, and then for us to know, that man cannot do in his own hands the right things such scenario needs to exists. That those ignorant of God remanins ignorant of God. And further, this thread, shows that we are indeed just clay -- That is what I learn from this thread.

Look, if you truly understand that God is the "POTTER," who are you, as a clay, to demand? This itself is a faulty argument; as if the computer could demand that it be made of INTEL chips.

By the way, baloo's challenge makes the same faulty argument. For if we truly know God there is no need of other proof of Him. If Baloo knew that God is good, what is the purpose of asking other proofs? And seeing that baloo had no intention to be under the will of God, what is the point for God to give him further proof?

How convenient.

keyser_soze · 03-21-2003, 09:14 AM

BTW, baloo at least made an effort to allow god to convince him. What has god done? Please feel to retort with anything besides "he gave his only son", because, 1) it was only a loan, and 2) it's a myth with more than a little bit of doubt as to it's verity.

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03-20-2003, 04:24 PM	#152
xian Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 378	but for reasons I already cited clearly, his test is faulty becuase it is not genuine. though Balloo himself seems like a genuine and a nice guy, his test is not.

03-20-2003, 04:46 PM	#154
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	For that matter, he can just reach his blood soaked arms right into baloo's head and MAKE him believe. After all, he is the potter, and he makes one as he wants...Is that not correct? And since he wants to save everyone, why should he not do his duty?

03-20-2003, 08:57 PM	#155
xian Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 378	i gave a very detailed argument as to the fault in his test. all you have done is god-rant and ask questions not relating to the logic of my argument. you haven't addressed my argument at all. i can only hope that baloo will return to this thread. i would love to see his comments on this.

03-21-2003, 07:59 AM	#157
7thangel Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Queens Village, NY Posts: 613	posted by xian: so I maintain my original postulation. if Baloo has concluded a cruel God, I totally fail to see how his test is genuine. In my opinion, the door is already shut and his god-check is a front for something already determined. And if God exists, maybe this is why he never gets his answer. WHy would God answer someone who already concluded He was cruel? I see no logical reason why God would communicate with Baloo under this pretext. Absolutely right, xian! I very much wondered why baloo should be making all the rules and condition. His post is a show of the ignorance of godhead. Else, Baloo is just kidding. I do not know which is which.

03-21-2003, 09:14 AM	#160
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	BTW, baloo at least made an effort to allow god to convince him. What has god done? Please feel to retort with anything besides "he gave his only son", because, 1) it was only a loan, and 2) it's a myth with more than a little bit of doubt as to it's verity.

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