Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radorth · 09-09-2002, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Religion brought power and wealth, they had every reason to lie.

That's 99.44% pure B.S. in their case.

They had every reason to crawl in a hole, write nothing, say nothing, and meet secretly until Constantine converted.

I can see why Layman doesn't spend a lot of time answering you.

Criminy.

Radorth

Family Man · 09-09-2002, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth:


They had every reason to crawl in a hole, write nothing, say nothing, and meet secretly until Constantine converted.
Radorth

Had they crawled into a hole, it is unlikely Constantine would have converted. It's amazing anyone answers you.

MortalWombat · 09-09-2002, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth:

I can see why Layman doesn't spend a lot of time answering you.

And what's the reason he's not answering Doherty?

Radorth · 09-09-2002, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Had they crawled into a hole, it is unlikely Constantine would have converted.

Of course many of them did not crawl in a hole, even though they had every reason to. That's the point. And their converts came and braved the most vile persecution because of their example- at least until the church and the pagan world started hosting mixers. (Eventually the persecution reversed. That much I will admit).

Radorth

Radorth · 09-09-2002, 08:55 PM

Quote:

And what's the reason he's not answering Doherty?

He is, at the rate he can, which is obviously not acceptable to you. He said he doesn't have time to write a book right now. Maybe he's worried the word "He" will slip out and he will be disqualified.

Not sure why you threw that shoe in the ring.

Rad

[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]

Ted Hoffman · 09-10-2002, 04:13 AM

Layman,
Geeze Int. Can you please bring yourself to answer someone else's question? Just this once?

Just this once? What are you talking about?

In Antiquities of the Jews 18 Chapter 5, Josephus says about JBap's death:

Quote:

...Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death

So, he was killed for fear that he would start an insurrection and was killed as a prisoner.

Mark 6:22-28 (the earliest gospel according to 2ST - Markan priority) says:

Quote:

And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;
22 And when the daughter of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.
23 And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give it thee, unto the half of my kingdom.
24 And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist.
25 And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.
26 And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her.
27 And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded him in the prison,
28 And brought his head in a charger, and gave it to the damsel: and the damsel gave it to her mother.

KJV
So Mark tells us he was killed by Herod to give his (John's) head as a gift to Herod's daughter for dancing so well in Herod's birthday.

Who do we beleive?

1. Both of the authors do NOT cite their sources. Josephus is apparently a mind-reader and can accurately tell us what Herods thoughts were concerning JBap. After all, he was there with Herod as he was soliquoizing.
2. On what Basis should we beleive Josephus' accounts is more historical than Marks?
3. Who was JBap's mother?
4. From whence did he get the concept of Baptism (by water) from?

My guess is, Josephus got the same unreliable info Mark got and edited it to remove myth. Mark tells us its Herod's wife who advised Salome to ask for JBaps head, Josephus spins some story (Antiquities 18.5.1 109-115) about Herod's wife getting married to Herods brother (incidentally also called Herod? - they sure were short of names those days) while she is still married to Herod, resulting in Herod divorcing her - how beleivable is this?.
Whats important is that Both Mark and Josephus:

1. Claim Herod Killed JBap for different reasons, in different styles.
2. Portray Herod's wife as some sort of Jezebel, for different acts.

Same story, with emendations that suit the axe being ground.

And if you don't know whether Josephus quotes his source or not for the John the Baptist reference perhaps you are simply to ignorant to hold an opinion on the matter of its validity.

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Radorth
Huh? I was talking about Peter's reference in his epistle to his experience with Jesus. No sermon mentioned.

Kindly read my post and the Bible before reponding next time.

Which Books, which chapters?
Perfecting the art of being vague can only take you thus far.

I can see why Layman doesn't spend a lot of time answering you.

This is a personality attack and is irrelevant to this discussion. Please stick to the issues and avoid derailing the discussion.
It is NOT my experience that Layman does not spend a lot of time answering me so I dont know from whence you got that idea and even what you mean by "a lot of time". And even if that were true, it is irrelevant and meaningless.

It is incorrect to assume that a religion that thrives on "offerings" can not attract the greedy.

Unless you assume greedy people only exist in fairy tales.

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]

Layman · 09-10-2002, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MortalWombat:


And what's the reason he's not answering Doherty?

Well, as I've explained many times now, I have my own agenda -- which sometimes overlaps with refuting Doherty.

Have you noticed perhaps that I've spent a lot of time and research on the TF?

Have you noticed perhaps the links I've provided to my former direct attack on Doherty's dating of Acts?

Or were you too busy thumping your chest.

Geeze. Kirby reminded me why I once posted here often. You guys are reminding me of why I left.

Layman · 09-10-2002, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Intensity:
Layman,
Geeze Int. Can you please bring yourself to answer someone else's question? Just this once?

Just this once? What are you talking about?

Sigh. You STILL have not answered any of my questions. After expressing your shock(!) that I would suggest such a thing.

Ted Hoffman · 09-10-2002, 08:05 AM

Layman
So you think John the Baptist did not exist? Was Josephus taken in by this hoax or is his reference to John the Baptist an interpolation?
I have answered this question by saying Josephus used unreliable info.
Hoax and Interpolation are not the only ways of interpreting this.

Please!

Layman · 09-10-2002, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Intensity:
Layman
So you think John the Baptist did not exist? Was Josephus taken in by this hoax or is his reference to John the Baptist an interpolation?
I have answered this question by saying Josephus used unreliable info.
Hoax and Interpolation are not the only ways of interpreting this.

Please!

I also asked you if you had noticed that my main point about bringing these examples up was to show that we lack nonChristian references to other prominent Christians who actually had more impact in their lifetimes -- such as Paul, Peter and James. Did you get that point?

So that is a "NO," from you. You do not believe that John the Baptist existed?

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09-10-2002, 08:05 AM	#69
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Layman So you think John the Baptist did not exist? Was Josephus taken in by this hoax or is his reference to John the Baptist an interpolation? I have answered this question by saying Josephus used unreliable info. Hoax and Interpolation are not the only ways of interpreting this. Please!

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