Technos

Excuse me for a moment, but you are aware that in other parts of the world christianity is a cult and their religions are bigger than yours right?

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Technos ]</p>

Echo

This one is especially problematic. Some say Jesus is God, some say he is the son of God, some say he is both, some say he is merely one of many manifestations of a unitarian God, some say he is a perfectly sinless human being but not god.

Oh, I get it now! Doh! Any Christian denomination with a different interpretation or opinion on such questions is an extremist/cult and therefore doesn't count.

How clever

TollHouse

I realize that you intended this to be a convienent cop-out but it actually harms your argument to a great degree.

Who decides which sect is extremist? Who decides which sects are cults? You? The very fact that Christianity has splintered into thousands of little sects all pointing their fingers at each other while proclaiming "Only we are the true Christians!" is enough to illustrate that the claims of the holy spirit is a bunch of holy horse-shit.

And on the topic of cults:
To any sane person, is there anything more extremist or cultish than the idea of joyously awaiting the destruction of Earth?

Malaclypse the Younger

Of course, this does beg the definition of "sane".

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Excellent question.


WHAT IF something extraordinary (such as the above) actually happened?

What would you expect to see if in fact God did exist AND sent such message to mankind?

Certainly it would:
-Be completely miraculuous. Nothing like it had ever happened and nothing like it ever happened again.
-Be unambiguous. Nobody BUT God could have sent the message.
-Be clear.
-Have much publicity.
-Have many reliable eyewitness accounts.
-Have documentation.
-Have a profound lasting affect on mankind.


These are things that such an event would produce.


These are things that Jesus life produced.


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

TollHouse

If my life were a Chick Tract then I suppose this is the point where I collapse to my knees with tears my eyes, admit that I'm a worthless sinner and ask Jesus into my heart?

Unfortuantely the events you described above are also things that Muhammad's life has produced according to 1.2 billion Muslims.

Why do some Christians constantly pretend that their religion is the only one that makes such fantastic claims?

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: TollHouse ]</p>

Malaclypse the Younger

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Interesting observations, but you have not really hepled us define the word "miracle" in such a way that it could provide evidence for the existence of a god.

Extraordinary means "out of the ordinary". But again, what's "ordinary"? How can I determine if an event is "ordinary" or "extraordinary"? It seems like you've just shuffled our nonspecificity to another word. Is flying through the air at 600 MPH ordinary or extraordinary? How about the observation of a constant speed of light? Quantum interconnected?

Yes, what?

We're trying to determine the definition of "miraculous". This criterion doesn't help. How do I know if some event that I witness has ever happened before? How can I know that it will never happen again? Under this definition, I will have to wait until the end of the universe to know if an event is miraculous.

Again, how can we know this? How do I know that some event is just a result of some subtle physical law that no one's noticed before?

Huh?

Lots of ordinary things have a lot of publicity. This doesn't help me.

Well, now we're getting into evidentiary requirements for believing claims (even claims of the ordinary). We're getting away from the definition of miracle.

As noted before, many ordinary events have lasting effects on mankind.

Of the above (relevant) criteria, they are either not determinable or they apply to ordinary events. I don't feel I'm any closer to a coherent definition of miracle then I was when I posted the OP.

First of all what we know of Jesus' life does not even fulfill your own criteria. Since we are believing reports instead of the evidence of our own senses, several of your criteria are especially noteworthy:

It is not clear that Jesus actual life had much publicity. Certainly there are a lot of writers of ~20-40 CE who never spoke of Jesus once. Even Paul doesn't really talk much about Jesus's life. Certainly Jesus was completely unknown outside of Palestine (and possibly Rome). China, India, North & South America, Africa... never heard of him. A century after his death, a smaller percentage of the existing population knew about Jesus than watched the last Superbowl.

It is not clear that there are any eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life. It appears that not a single person who knew him directly wrote anything down anywhere close to the time it was happening. The earliest that we can date Mark is 70 CE, nearly 40 years after Jesus' alleged death.

It is not clear by the same token that we have any documentation (although you cleverly leave out a definition of that term; is, for instance, Gone with the Wind "documentation" for Scarlett O'Hara's existence?)

And again, it is not clear that Jesus' actual life had any lasting effect (not affect) on mankind. Certainly the church that sprang up around the mythos (or cleverly constructed it for its own political purposes) has had a profound (if rather negative) effect

This criterion conspicuously fails. Even if Jesus actually existed, and his life and "miraculous" events were perfectly witnessed & documented, after 2000 years, christians, who presumably take all of this on faith, still cannot agree on what Jesus' message was.


Let's look instead at Einstein's invention of the Theory of Relativity.

-Be completely miraculuous. Nothing like it had ever happened and nothing like it ever happened again.

We know that the invention of the Theory of Relativity did not ever happen before, and we can know (at least as long as human memory is more-or-less continuous) that it will never be "invented" again. This event is certainly as singular as we can possibly know.

-Be unambiguous. Nobody BUT God could have sent the message.

Well, I don't know about God, but I know the vast majority of people could not have invented the theory of Relativity. I don't know how much more godlike an event I could determine.

-Be clear.

The Theory of Relativity is certainly clear. It requires less study to understand than christian theology; even better, it seems that--unlike christians--everyone who does study it actually agrees on what it says and means.

-Have much publicity.

The Theory of Relativity is probably the best publicized scientific theory in the history of mankind. A huge number of people have at least heard of it.

-Have many reliable eyewitness accounts.
-Have documentation.

No shortage of these.

-Have a profound lasting affect on mankind.

No doubt whatsoever about this (e.g. the Atomic Bomb).

By your own criteria, the invention of the Theory of Relativity is vastly more "miraculous" than Jesus' life.

Malaclypse the Younger

I realize belatedly that this isn't the "Definition of 'miracle'" thread. Sorry for the confusion in the previous message.

TollHouse

Well damn! So much for your post being a miracle. Seeing how it isn't 'clear'...

HRG

Let's compare it with the claims of Islam.

- The Qu'ran was only dictated once. Nothing like it had ever happened etc. Check.
(BTW, other claims of resurrection exist)
- Unambigous. No one but Allah could have sent Gabriel to dictate the Qu'ran. Check.
- The Qu'ran is clearer than the Bible. Check.
- Mohammed had more publicity during his life than Jesus. Check.
- Mohammed had more eye-witnesses than Jesus which were historical figures (like the first caliphs). Claims of eye-witnesses are not eye-witnesses. Check for the Qu'ran.
- Documentation: Qu'ran plus hadith. Check.
- Profound lasting influence on mankind: Check.
As we have seen, the same - and more - can be said for Mohammed's life. So why don't you convert to Islam ?

Regards,
HRG.