Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vajradhara · 08-22-2003, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by triplew00t
[B]There is no scriptual basis. Thats what Soto is about. If anything goes against what you feel to be true, against common sense and what we understand of reality, reject it. All these talks of heavens and hells are unneeded to explain life. They are superfluous.

Namaste triplewoot,

well... i'll agree with you somewhat

whilst it's very true that the experience we are practicing to have is beyond scritpure, it would be incorrect to say that Zen or rather Ch'an is not based on scripture. the Heart Sutra is chanted daily in Zen monastaries around the world, for example.

common sense, it seems, is not all that common

and our undestanding of reality seems to change on a daily basis as our ability to observe the universe is increases.

when the sutras talk of heaven and hell, these are understood to be metaphors for the positive and negative mental states, though i'll agree that for some people, these are literal places that one believes they go to.

the sutras and shatras are simply vehicles, tools, to help us get to the other shore. once we understand the concept, we can forget the words... though we do need to words to grasp the concept. does that make sense?

triplew00t · 08-22-2003, 03:39 PM

Actually andy that thought occured to me as I was posting, but I figure I'll fight fire with fire

As for why I believe as I do, its mostly that I lack any belief. I am a skeptic at heart, and Zen, to me, is very common-sense oriented. Other Zen practicioners may believe in supernaturality or reincarnation. I take what they talk about to be references to much more mundane reactions. To each his own.

Nero

triplew00t · 08-22-2003, 10:14 PM

I must also add something. While I deny reincarnation, it is only in the sense that it is taken by popular culture, and Hinduism. Buddha denied the concept of even a self to reincarnated. All that goes into creating you is from past actions of others. You are therefore a reincarnation of all their combined efforts and effects. All you do will effect other, infinately, forever in the most unpredictible ways (ala Chaos Theory and the Butterfly that Destroyed Oakland). In this way, your actions continue to be reborn forever.

As well, the you who got out of bed this morning is dead. The you who went to the store yesterday is dead. The you who married 2 years ago is dead, and the you who grew up in Vermont is dead. All of the past is dead, both from you and other, but all of it, every single bit, is reincarnated and reborn into the present that we currently experience. When I die, one stream of experience will have drifted back into the ocean. I never existed to begin with as a seperate entity, and I will always exist, as I always have, as part of this universe. I was created by infinite past karma, and I picked it up, carried it and left it for others.

There are 2 types of karma that I can discern. That which I reap the rewards of in my life, and that which drifts out and others experience after my life.

Nero

Vajradhara · 08-25-2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by triplew00t
I must also add something. While I deny reincarnation, it is only in the sense that it is taken by popular culture, and Hinduism. Buddha denied the concept of even a self to reincarnated. All that goes into creating you is from past actions of others. You are therefore a reincarnation of all their combined efforts and effects. All you do will effect other, infinately, forever in the most unpredictible ways (ala Chaos Theory and the Butterfly that Destroyed Oakland). In this way, your actions continue to be reborn forever.

As well, the you who got out of bed this morning is dead. The you who went to the store yesterday is dead. The you who married 2 years ago is dead, and the you who grew up in Vermont is dead. All of the past is dead, both from you and other, but all of it, every single bit, is reincarnated and reborn into the present that we currently experience. When I die, one stream of experience will have drifted back into the ocean. I never existed to begin with as a seperate entity, and I will always exist, as I always have, as part of this universe. I was created by infinite past karma, and I picked it up, carried it and left it for others.

There are 2 types of karma that I can discern. That which I reap the rewards of in my life, and that which drifts out and others experience after my life.

Nero

Namaste nero,

thank you for explaning your position on the matter, it's appreciated.

indeed... if that is your understanding of reincarnation, or rebirth (as that is the Buddhist term) i would also not subscribe to it. fortunately, that is not the Buddhist view of rebirth.. at least as far as i've been able to ascertain. i'll grant that we practice a different tradition, you a Zen practioner and myself a Vajrayana practiconer, so we're bound to have some disagreements over points of inconsequential doctrine

in any event, perhaps i can explain a bit more comprehensively about rebirth (what and how) and karma. as i'm sure you know, karma is not the sole cause of our rebirth, Buddhist philosophy posits 24 conditions that cause one to take rebirth, karma simply being one of those.

as i'm rather new to the board, i'm unsure of the protocol.. should i go ahead and post a long, lengthy post with sutra references and so forth?

triplew00t · 08-27-2003, 04:36 PM

Please, submit a long post if needed. I look forward to hearing how you view reincarnation/rebirth.

In peace, Nero

Vajradhara · 09-10-2003, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by triplew00t
Please, submit a long post if needed. I look forward to hearing how you view reincarnation/rebirth.

In peace, Nero

Namaste Nero,

thank you for the posting...

perhaps, before we discuss rebirth directly, it would be of some value to talk about Karma and it's implications... even though in the Theravedan tradition karma is one of the "unthinkables".

does your tradition talk about karma and it's effects? if so, that will make our conversation a bit easier.. if not, i'm happy to post what i know in regards to this subject.. though i'm happy to admit that it's not much

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08-22-2003, 03:39 PM	#32
triplew00t Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 141	Actually andy that thought occured to me as I was posting, but I figure I'll fight fire with fire As for why I believe as I do, its mostly that I lack any belief. I am a skeptic at heart, and Zen, to me, is very common-sense oriented. Other Zen practicioners may believe in supernaturality or reincarnation. I take what they talk about to be references to much more mundane reactions. To each his own. Nero

08-22-2003, 10:14 PM	#33
triplew00t Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 141	I must also add something. While I deny reincarnation, it is only in the sense that it is taken by popular culture, and Hinduism. Buddha denied the concept of even a self to reincarnated. All that goes into creating you is from past actions of others. You are therefore a reincarnation of all their combined efforts and effects. All you do will effect other, infinately, forever in the most unpredictible ways (ala Chaos Theory and the Butterfly that Destroyed Oakland). In this way, your actions continue to be reborn forever. As well, the you who got out of bed this morning is dead. The you who went to the store yesterday is dead. The you who married 2 years ago is dead, and the you who grew up in Vermont is dead. All of the past is dead, both from you and other, but all of it, every single bit, is reincarnated and reborn into the present that we currently experience. When I die, one stream of experience will have drifted back into the ocean. I never existed to begin with as a seperate entity, and I will always exist, as I always have, as part of this universe. I was created by infinite past karma, and I picked it up, carried it and left it for others. There are 2 types of karma that I can discern. That which I reap the rewards of in my life, and that which drifts out and others experience after my life. Nero

08-27-2003, 04:36 PM	#35
triplew00t Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 141	Please, submit a long post if needed. I look forward to hearing how you view reincarnation/rebirth. In peace, Nero

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