Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bill Snedden · 08-04-2003, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
Why are sisters happy?

Why are any of us happy? What is the "cause" of human happiness? Is that really what you're asking?

I think the answer you seek lies within you. What makes you happy? It's most likely the same thing...

I'd be willing to hazard a guess that "happy nuns" find their lives fulfilling, just like "happy bricklayers", "happy corporate executives" and "happy schoolteachers". I really don't think there's any great mystery here...

I remember seeing that Alzheimer's study written up in Scientific American (I think). Some of the more interesting findings to date:

Quote:

Positive Emotions in Early Life and Longevity: Findings from the Nun Study

Deborah D. Danner, David A. Snowdon, Wallace V. Friesen

Handwritten autobiographies from 180 Catholic nuns, composed when participants were a mean age of 22 years, were scored for emotional content and related to survival during ages 75 to 95. A strong inverse association was found between positive emotional content in these writings and risk of mortality in late life (p < .001). As the quartile ranking of positive emotion in early life increased, there was a stepwise decrease in risk of mortality resulting in a 2.5-fold difference between the lowest and highest quartiles. Positive emotional content in early-life autobiographies was strongly associated with longevity 6 decades later. Underlying mechanisms of balanced emotional states are discussed.

Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 2001;80(5):804-813

Linguistic ability in early life and the neuropathology of Alzheimer�s disease
and cerebrovascular disease: Findings from the Nun Study

David A. Snowdon, Lydia H. Greiner, William R. Markesbery

Findings from the Nun Study indicate that low linguistic ability in early life has a strong association with dementia and premature death in late life. In the present study, we investigated the relationship of linguistic ability in early life to the neuropathology of Alzheimer�s disease and cerebrovascular disease. The analyses were done on a subset of 74 participants in the Nun Study for whom we had handwritten autobiographies completed some time between the ages of 19 and 37 (mean=23). An average of 62 years after writing the autobiographies, when the participants were 78 to 97 years old, they died and their brains were removed for our neuropathologic studies. Linguistic ability in early life was measured by the idea (proposition) density of the autobiographies, i.e., a standard measure of the content of ideas in text samples. Idea density scores from early life had strong inverse correlations with the severity of Alzheimer�s disease pathology in the neocortex: Correlations between idea density scores and neurofibrillary tangle counts were -0.59 for the frontal lobe, -0.48 for the temporal lobe, and -0.49 for the parietal lobe (all p-values < 0.0001). Idea density scores were unrelated to the severity of atherosclerosis of the major arteries at the base of the brain and to the presence of lacunar and large brain infarcts. Low linguistic ability in early life may reflect suboptimal neurological and cognitive development which might increase susceptibility to the development of Alzheimer�s disease pathology in late life.

Linguistic ability in early life and longevity: Findings from the Nun Study

David A. Snowdon PhD, Lydia H. Greiner BSN, Susan J. Kemper PhD,
Nuwan Nanayakkara PhD and James A. Mortimer

Findings from the Nun Study indicate that low linguistic ability in early life has a strong relationship to poor cognitive function and dementia in late life, and the number of Alzheimer's disease lesions in the brain. In the present analyses, we investigated the relationship between linguistic ability in early life and all cause mortality in late life in a subset of 180 participants in the Nun Study. Two measures of linguistic ability in early life, idea (proposition) density and grammatical complexity, were derived from autobiographies written by the participants when they were 18 to 32 years old. An average of 58 years later, when these participants were 75 to 93 years old, all cause mortality rates were determined. Of the two linguistic measures, idea density in early life had the strongest and most consistent relationship to the rate of all cause mortality in late life: A one-unit decrease in idea density in early life (i.e., one idea expressed per ten words in a sentence) was associated with a 49 percent increase in the mortality rate (95% CI=17-89; p-value=0.001). This finding did not appear to be due to confounding by birth year, education attained at the time when the autobiography was written, or age during the mortality surveillance period. Standard life table analyses indicated that the median age at death for 75-year-olds was 81.7 years for those with low idea density in early life and 88.5 years for those with high idea density in early life. Low linguistic ability in early life may reflect suboptimal cognitive and neurological development which may increase susceptibility to aging-related declines and disease processes, resulting in a higher mortality rate late in life. Overall, low linguistic ability and its correlates in early life may place potent limits on the longevity of individuals.

The Paradoxes of Longevity 1999; 103-113

The loss of independence in activities of daily living:
The role of low normal cognitive function in elderly nuns

Philip A. Greiner DNSc, David A. Snowdon PhD, and Frederick A. Schmitt PhD

Objectives: We investigated the role of low normal cognitive function in the subsequent loss of independence in activities of daily living.
Methods: Of the 678 participants in The Nun Study who completed cognitive and physical function assessments in 1992-3, 575 were reassessed in 1993-4. Mini-Mental State Examination scores were divided into three categories (i.e., 0-23 as impaired; 24-27 as low normal; 28-30 as high normal) and related to the loss of independence in six activities of daily living.
Results: Participants with low normal cognitive function at first assessment had twice the risk of losing independence in three activities of daily living by second assessment as compared to those with high normal cognitive function. This relationship was largely due to a progression from low normal cognitive function at first assessment to impaired cognitive function at second assessment, and was associated with an elevated risk of losing independence in the six activities.
Conclusions: Progression from low normal to impaired cognitive function was associated with loss of independence in activities of daily living. Thus, low normal cognitive function could be viewed as an early warning of impending cognitive impairment and loss of physical function.

American Journal of Public Health 1996;86(1):62-66

There's an incredible wealth of data in this study, but none whatever to suggest that anything supernatural is taking place. I'm somewhat at a loss to understand why you consider it relevant to your thesis, if that is your thesis.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

livius drusus · 08-04-2003, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
livius drusus,

Is that the best response you gave give? Because if it is, I feel sorry about your (apparent) lack of intelligence.

This remark is a blatant violation of Rule 2. Since I am involved in this discussion I will not moderate your misbehavior, but I hope you have the decency to admit your error and edit yourself.

Quote:

Really, that was an insult to religious sisters, Catholics, and intelligent people everywhere.

In what way? I was simply proferring a few perfectly plausible reason why the handful of nuns on the convent website might seem happy, but if you don't like my reasons, then feel free to reply to the many people in this thread have posted a wide range of reasons for the putative happiness of nuns, none of which have anything at all to do with proving the existence of the Catholic God.

Quote:

As far as your links are concerned, the sexual trauma that sisters have endured is indeed horrible and inexcusable, and something does need to be done. But that is not the point of this thread. You have still evaded the question --

Why are sisters happy?

Which sisters? The ones I linked to lead destroyed, devastated lives thanks to a hierarchy that protects abusers. So far you have linked to a few happy faces and claimed this somehow proves your assertion that nuns are happier than the general populace. My rebuttals show that a large number of nuns are not only unhappy, but the Church itself, the vicar of Christ, is solely responsible for the decimation of their lives.

Quote:

Also, have you ever met a sister?

Please. I lived in Rome for 13 years, Gemma. I went to Marymount International School and knew what the initials RSHM stood for before you stopped suckling at your mother's teat. I've stood in St. Peter's Square watching the smoke turn from black to white 3 times. I have been personally blessed by John Paul II twice and was a regular on Vatican radio for a year.

I have forgotten more about the culture and history of the Church than you'll ever know. If it's an appeal to personal experience you want, indulge it on somebody else.

viscousmemories · 08-04-2003, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
Yes, they have given up their freedom. We are free in this country, but we are not free to commit a crime, without consequences. Nuns are free to leave their order, but if they leave without permission from Rome, there are consequences.

Gemma Therese

Oh, I see. So you just mean they've given up some of their personal freedoms, like every member of a participatory society. In other words, a statistically insignificant sacrifice. So lets recap, shall we?

You said about nuns: "These women have given up freedom, possessions, children, and marraige, and yet, they are joyful."

In the time since you said that, it has been shown that:

Nuns don't really give up their freedom anymore than anyone who chooses to participate in society
Nuns don't really relinquish possessions, per se, just private ownership of possessions
Nuns aren't all joyful

Well, look on the bright side. You weren't totally off-base. Clearly nuns do forgo marriage. I wonder if it's that non-participation in one of their god's most sacred rituals that makes some nuns so happy.

vm

Oh and by the way, those nuns you keep posting a link to sure do appear happy. So is it their bright smiles in that photograph that convinced you of their contentedness, or was it the fact that you met them and they appeared to be happy in person? 'Cause I'll let you in on a little secret: Most people smile for cameras, and most people (I imagine nuns in particular) probably aren't going to tell someone they just met about any deeply personal issues related to their satisfaction with their life and/or vocation.

livius drusus · 08-04-2003, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
Letter to the editor, St. Louis Post - Dispatch (Except) [sic]

"The front page subheading states "An estimated 40 pct. were victimized, some by priests, other nuns, survey found." However, nowhere in the article is there evidence for this 40 percent estimate. According to the tables in the article, 18.6 percent of the nuns who responded to the survey reported that they were sexually abused as children, and the majority of these incidents were at the hands of family members. The percentage reporting any instances of sexual exploitation or harassment during their religious life is lower (12.5 percent and 9.3 percent). Thus, the 40 percent claim and its association with "priests and other nuns" appears to be deliberately misleading.

As study researcher John T. Chibnall, Associate Professor of Psychiatry, St. Louis University, pointed out in his reply to Janet Lauritsen, it only appears so because the article, which is the only thing Lauritsen has read, neglects to mention two rather immense categories of the study: namely, intra-community sexual harassment, and other forms of sexual abuse not accounted for by the other categories (including rape and sexual assault). So I'm afraid Ms. Lauritsen's figures are all off. She would have known this had she actually read the study instead of relying on a reporter's summary.

Quote:

Another subheading alleges that the study has been "kept quiet," when in fact, the results had been previously reported in two religious research journals. To attribute one's own lack of awareness to an alleged conspiracy when the research has appeared in print twice is both bizarre and suggestive of serious bias."

Lauritsen is here interpolating into the article, and in any case, it has nothing to do with the study which was sponsored by several Church organizations. The researchers agreed to publish in 2 discreet magazines without a press release at the specific request of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, who had provided them with potential study participants from among their orders. The LCWR was concerned about the negative publicity this study would engender in the press and the researchers respected their wishes.

The article, which is available for $2.95 from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch Archives (go with the one week pass to get the two letters as well as the article for the bargain price of $6.95) makes this entirely clear.

Available free of charge, however, is the study itself: National Survey of the Sexual Trauma Experience of Catholic Nuns published in the Review of Religious Research. I doubt you read the alzheimer's study you linked to; if you had, you might have noticed how it has nothing at all to do with your assertion that nuns are happier than the general population. But I hope you take the time to read this one and see how many desperately unhappy nuns there are in this country. Since I suspect intellectual curiosity is unlikely to strike a chord, call it an act of charity.

elektra · 08-05-2003, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
Happy sisters:

http://www.nashvilledominican.org

Happy (lesbian) sisters:

http://www.youthresource.com/ourlive...ges/twelve.gif

elektra · 08-05-2003, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese
Here:

http://www.funmurphys.com/blog/archives/00000100.html

By the by, I have not met every battered woman in the world either, but I think it's a pretty safe bet to say they are sadder than the general population.

False dichotomy.

sophie · 08-05-2003, 05:38 AM

livius drusus :

Quote:

What is your response to the Church-sponsored study that found 40% of American nuns reported sexual trauma at the hands of their clerical brethren causing "feelings of anger, shame, anxiety and depression" and leading some to "consider leaving religious life" or even attempting suicide? Forty percent, Gemma. That is a massive number. Where do they fit into your belief system?

This probably means they are men just like you. Ever heard of the false prophet? Extend this to false clergy. Their feelings must have been caused by the falseness within the Church.

Quote:

Why blame a GOD when a man can be blamed. (anon)

yeh.

sophie · 08-05-2003, 05:46 AM

livius drusus :

Quote:

Well, perhaps they're putting on a happy face when inside they're dying.

A nonsense argument. If you know anything about Humans, you would know this is an ultimately difficult task to perform.

sophie · 08-05-2003, 06:01 AM

livius drusus : The argument may lead to : 'in the absence of mortal evil, nuns can lead happy lives, with their thoughts of omniGOD and the rewards embedded therein'.

Gemma Therese : A word of caution, to not let your emotions dispel your clear thinking.

Bill and the others : Concerning the cause of happiness : Money, comfort, good friends, health, emotional stability.

yeh.

Nowhere357 · 08-05-2003, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sophie
Bill and the others : Concerning the cause of happiness : Money, comfort, good friends, health, emotional stability.

Actually, no. A exiled leader for example may have all those things yet be miserable because she lost her country; while a beggar may have none of those things yet be happy because he found a crust of bread. It is the change in our situation which leads to happiness or misery.

yin/yang.

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08-05-2003, 06:01 AM	#99
sophie Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: On the road to extinction. . . Posts: 1,485	livius drusus : The argument may lead to : 'in the absence of mortal evil, nuns can lead happy lives, with their thoughts of omniGOD and the rewards embedded therein'. Gemma Therese : A word of caution, to not let your emotions dispel your clear thinking. Bill and the others : Concerning the cause of happiness : Money, comfort, good friends, health, emotional stability. yeh.

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