Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 03-12-2003, 09:49 AM

Some claims were made on another website where I have neither the time nor the inclination to engage in a lengthy off-topic discussion. Unfortunately the participants have declined my invitation to bring the discussion to a more appropriate forum. But I thought I'd post the claims here for people to chew on:

Quote:

However, if you are interested in the subject of anomalous fossil finds, there are plenty of examples out there. I'm sure your "young world creationist" contacts, or even others posting on this Board, could provided you with plenty of them.
I don't have any references with me in France at this writing, but I generally remember a few examples like 1) modern human skulls being found embedded deep within (Italian?) coal deposits, 2) A trilobite found imbedded in the fossilized footprint of a human child in Utah. The trilobite was alive at the time the child stepped on it, since it is "squashed." 3) A fossilized whale skeleton (I don't know where) found fossilized perpendicular to strata and not horizontal (i.e. through "millions of years" and "epochs" of strata) 4) somewhere in the (Northwest?) of the USA, a fossil bed of horses, where modern horse fossils are mixed together with I think Eohippus. , etc., etc., etc.

There are MANY well documented finds like that out there, and if your REALLY interested, I 'm sure your young world creationist contacts would be more than happy to fill in any of my information gaps, and provide many more examples than I ever could. I do seem to remember there being a number of anomalous plant fossil finds as well, which might be more interesting to you.

As usual, no documentation, citations, or evidence of any kind to support the claims.

Added by another participant:

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There is also the fossils in the Big Bend area . There are Allosaurus and modern human footprints mixed together. Many other anomalous objects have been found in layers of rock millions, even billions of years old. There is a Neanderthal skull in London with a hole that is consistant with being hit from a high powered projectile. Same with a buffalo or mastadon skull (I can't remember which) in Moscow.

When I challenged these claims he followed up with:

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Nope, this is totally serious. There are many instances of these kind of anomalous finds. They are almost always ignored or left in a back, dusty storage room of museums because they don't fit the current beliefs or theories. NBC aired a program a few years back called "Mysterious Origins of Man", hosted by Charlton Heston. They showed this an other mysteries. These coexisting footprints have been known and were thought to maybe be faked. The footprints disappeared into a surrounding hillside. Archeologists excavated the rock and the sets of Allosaur and human footprints continued, there was no way this could have been faked. There are many instances of metal obects or bones being found in layers of coal hundreds of millions of years old. A geode was found in a gold mine in California. It was broke open and a spark plug like device fell out.
I will try to find a link to the footprints. A good book to read is called "Forbidden Archeology" that has hundreds of documented cases.

Any comments?

Happy Wonderer · 03-12-2003, 09:57 AM

The Spark plug geode story is an old one, it is a 1920's-era Champion spark plug enclosed in hardened clay (including a nail and a washer.)

Ancient spark plug?

HW

Duvenoy · 03-12-2003, 10:21 AM

Hi Mr. D!

The above have been debunked so many times that they are no longer even interesting, as I'm sure you well know.

I believe Talk Origins has covered most if not all of them.

Too bad, but not suprising that the claiments won't come to a place that'll give them the scientific truth.

(chuckle) I am reminded of the 'allosarus with human remains in it's belly', April fools hoax pulled off some years ago. Every now and then, that turkey still gets cited.

I fear that Mr. Heston is slipping...........

doov

MortalWombat · 03-12-2003, 02:12 PM

Many of these are debunked in the following articles:

Creationist Arguments: Anomalous Fossils

A Whale of a Tale

The Meister Print

Did Hyracotherium and Equus Live at the Same Time?

The Texas Dinosaur/"Man Track" Controversy

The "hole in the skull" I think is covered in a book review of "Buried Alive"

JonF · 03-12-2003, 02:28 PM

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modern human skulls being found embedded deep within (Italian?) coal deposits

German coal deposits. The Freiberg skull. All but the most ill-informed creationists have given up on that one. It's a poorly-executed hoax. See Freiberg Skull, and note the links to creationist sites retracting their claims.

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A trilobite found imbedded in the fossilized footprint of a human child in Utah. The trilobite was alive at the time the child stepped on it, since it is "squashed."

Ah, the good ol' old Meisner print, embellished with a few added lies. See The "Meister Print": An Alleged Human Sandal Print from Utah.

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A fossilized whale skeleton (I don't know where) found fossilized perpendicular to strata and not horizontal (i.e. through "millions of years" and "epochs" of strata

Another old chestnut. See A Whale of a Tale.

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somewhere in the (Northwest?) of the USA, a fossil bed of horses, where modern horse fossils are mixed together with I think Eohippus. , etc., etc., etc.

That one has been fully debunked only fairly recently. See Did Hyracotherium and Equus Live at the Same Time? .

Quote:

There is also the fossils in the Big Bend area . There are Allosaurus and modern human footprints mixed together. ...NBC aired a program a few years back called "Mysterious Origins of Man", hosted by Charlton Heston. They showed this an other mysteries. These coexisting footprints have been known and were thought to maybe be faked. The footprints disappeared into a surrounding hillside. Archeologists excavated the rock and the sets of Allosaur and human footprints continued, there was no way this could have been faked.

The Paluxy footprints. Some of them were indeed faked, the rest are dinosaur footprints. Only a few lunatic-fringe creationists and the excessively gullible or ignorant believe in this one any more; see THE PALUXY RIVER MYSTERY, published by one of the major creationist societies. There's a lot of good information on this and other "anomalies", including a discussion of "The Mysterious Origins of Man" at The Paluxy Dinosaur/"Man Track" Controversy. There's a lot of discussion of TMOOM and "Forbidden Archaeology" at NBC's "The Mysterious Origins of Man" . Note that the producer has withdrawn "The Mysterious Origins of Man" from circulation because its claims have been so thoroughly disproven.

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There is a Neanderthal skull in London with a hole that is consistant with being hit from a high powered projectile. Same with a buffalo or mastadon skull (I can't remember which) in Moscow.

Not familiar with those ones, sorry.

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A geode was found in a gold mine in California. It was broke open and a spark plug like device fell out.

Another poster has already dealt with this.

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A good book to read is called "Forbidden Archeology" that has hundreds of documented cases

Interesting. Many creationists don't cite that book, because it's emphatically not Christian; the authors are pushing Hindu creationism. It's pretty much all garbage.See Forbidden Archaeology : Antievolutionism Outside the Christian Arena and Hidden History, Hidden Agenda. Many of the specific claims are discussed at talkorigins.org; search for "forbiddden archaeology" (including the quotes) at http://talkorigins.org/origins/search.html.

MrDarwin · 03-12-2003, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Duvenoy
The above have been debunked so many times that they are no longer even interesting, as I'm sure you well know.

Yes, it's depressing that we have to deal with the same misinformation, over and over. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of people out there who believe these things are true.

Dr.GH · 03-12-2003, 04:28 PM

I feel that MortalWombat, Mr. Darwin, and JonF have done a fine job of resonding to these creato stupidities. And honorable mention to Happy Wanderer

Hear, hear!!

MrDarwin · 03-12-2003, 07:40 PM

Thanks Dr. GH but I haven't done much of anything--I simply haven't had much time lately to spend on discussions like this, so I posted it here knowing that other people would provide all the necessary debunking for me!

Oolon Colluphid · 03-13-2003, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonF
There is a Neanderthal skull in London with a hole that is consistant with being hit from a high powered projectile. Same with a buffalo or mastadon skull (I can't remember which) in Moscow.

Not familiar with those ones, sorry.

I found the Neanderthal bullet wound referred to on loads of cretinist sites, usually just as the bald claim, often with an excess of exclamation marks

. The truth was a little harder to find than the fiction... but it too is mentioned on TO, in a review of Jack Cuozzo�s Buried Alive.

It�s actually the Broken Hill skull, the �bullet hole� is partially healed (how many people survive bullet wounds to the head? -- yeah it happens, but it ain�t likely!), and the bone opposite is intact. See here, and also Montgomery et al (1994): �An assessment of the temporal bone lesions of the Broken Hill cranium�, Journal of Archaeological Science 21:331-337. (Unfortunately that�s not online... anyone have access?)

Cheers, DT

Duvenoy · 03-13-2003, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darwin's Terrier
I found the Neanderthal bullet wound referred to on loads of cretinist sites, usually just as the bald claim, often with an excess of exclamation marks . The truth was a little harder to find than the fiction... but it too is mentioned on TO, in a review of Jack Cuozzo�s Buried Alive.

Cheers, DT

Quote:

So much for the species and the date. What about the �bullet hole�? Well, for one thing, it did not kill the individual. The edges of the lesion have started to heal, so whatever caused the hole was not the cause of death. Instead, the wound appears to have been a pathological, rather than a traumatic lesion. Few individuals survive a bullet to the brain; needless to say, the parietal bone on the opposite side is not shattered, as is claimed, but is very much intact.

Thanks DT for doing my research for me (I'm lazy).

I'd heard about this skull but seen no literature.

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03-12-2003, 09:57 AM	#2
Happy Wonderer Veteran Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Washington, the least religious state Posts: 5,334	The Spark plug geode story is an old one, it is a 1920's-era Champion spark plug enclosed in hardened clay (including a nail and a washer.) Ancient spark plug? HW

03-12-2003, 10:21 AM	#3
Duvenoy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Just another hick from the sticks. Posts: 1,108	Hi Mr. D! The above have been debunked so many times that they are no longer even interesting, as I'm sure you well know. I believe Talk Origins has covered most if not all of them. Too bad, but not suprising that the claiments won't come to a place that'll give them the scientific truth. (chuckle) I am reminded of the 'allosarus with human remains in it's belly', April fools hoax pulled off some years ago. Every now and then, that turkey still gets cited. I fear that Mr. Heston is slipping........... doov

03-12-2003, 02:12 PM	#4
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	Many of these are debunked in the following articles: Creationist Arguments: Anomalous Fossils A Whale of a Tale The Meister Print Did Hyracotherium and Equus Live at the Same Time? The Texas Dinosaur/"Man Track" Controversy The "hole in the skull" I think is covered in a book review of "Buried Alive"

03-12-2003, 04:28 PM	#7
Dr.GH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Point, Ca, USA Posts: 2,115	I feel that MortalWombat, Mr. Darwin, and JonF have done a fine job of resonding to these creato stupidities. And honorable mention to Happy Wanderer Hear, hear!!

03-12-2003, 07:40 PM	#8
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Thanks Dr. GH but I haven't done much of anything--I simply haven't had much time lately to spend on discussions like this, so I posted it here knowing that other people would provide all the necessary debunking for me!

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