Kosh

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Albert Cipriani

He's right of course. The universe can't have just come from nothing! It had to be created by the most powerfull supernatural being in the, uh, well, who just is. And he of course was created by... uh, er,uh.... hmmmmm :eek <tap tap tap> .... !!!! he just always was! Yeah that's it. He just always was!

oh, and uh, he loves you.

and he wants you to worship him.

uh, and he wants 10%. Every sunday, so we can build a building for you to worship him in.

Yeah, that's it.

Azathoth

Very subtle,and quite funny,Albert.Probably one of the best fundy parodies I've seen for quite a while.

Magus55

Why does God have to have a creator? He isn't a material being. He has existed for all eternity, never changing. He always was, always is, and always will be. The same can't be said of matter. The number of atoms in the universe now, is the same number as at the creation of the universe. The amount of energy is constant as well. All energy present in the universe, is the same amount as has been since the beginning.

Now the question to ponder, is what created that energy and matter in the first place, and made it constant? Can't be a singularity, because the amount of matter would have had to change, since a singularity = zero.

But of course, the usual scientific claim is, we don't know how it works or started, only that it happened

Demigawd

Yeah, that's because good science relies upon actual observations, rather than just making shit up such as religions do. In your desire to have a simple black-and-white understanding of existence, you've been suckered in by a particular mythology.

Clutch

That is just beautiful.

Holy cow, the nerve of those scientists. Saying they don't know, whenever they don't know!

When will they ever learn that the right thing to say when you don't know is, "Hallelujah! Praise JEEEZUSSSS! It musta been a miracle!"

Ah, Magus -- never leave. Your entertainment value is limitless.

Salmon of Doubt

<sigh> Do you not realise how ridiculous this sounds? If the universe has to have a creator, then God also has to have a creator. And if you just sidestep the issue with the idea that God is not a material being, what is he made of, and where did that come from? Just because you call something supernatural doesn't mean you can avoid the issue of where that comes from. And if God is unchanging for eternity, what is wrong with the whole big bang/big crunch theory happening for eternity?

Coragyps

Errrmm... there were no atoms at the creation of the universe, and once they started forming, the census has been changing continuously. Have you never heard of atomic fusion? It happens in stars. All the time.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

Actually, electrons don't simply not be--only specific states of them. Their posistion is not well defined--nor is a wave in the water.
Actually, the sum of the mass energy and the gravitational enery, and the radiation energy is ZERO. Nothing came from nothing--just slightly different.

Take the equation a+b=0. You can do whatever you want to either side, so long as you don't change the total result.
This is utterly false. Certain particles do spontaneously appear and disappear in vacuums, but the entirety of matter has never dissappeared once. Ever.
Lots of insubstantial rhetoric here.

Not that traditional, if you believe in the Pope being inerrant.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

Everything else does, right?
And therefore cannot be detected, even inderectly. He therefore cannot influence the universe. He therefore does not exist. Score one for the atheists!
Except for the rules on salvation, right?
Well, actually...
The same can be said for mass/energy, since they are entirely interchangeable, and there is this basic LAW OF PHYSICS that states that matter and nergy must always be conserved.
False!
Yes--but the energy changes forms under varying condtions.
NOTHING! Matter and energy cannot be created--laws of physics!
Sum total of mass and energy, yes. Incidentally, that is the sum total of mass and energy right now.
[/quote]
But of course, the usual scientific claim is, we don't know how it works or started, only that it happened [/QUOTE]

Because we DON'T know.

Do you know how God operates? Why he does and does not act in, say, Africa, where millions are starving? Why he allows so much evil to corrupt the world? It isn't about choice--hell, you always have the choice to act--however, you have not the garauntee that your action will not be stopped.

You pull the same defense every time we confront you with similar situations--if it's bullocks for us, then it's bullocks for you. Or worse, since we make no claim as to having absolute knowledge.

Albert Cipriani

Dear Dancing,
You say that electrons “don’t simply not be.” But where they are does. Even that they are does.

Any metaphysical understanding of existence includes the notion of place. The place of an electron defies analysis. So one can logically assert that the electron illogically exists and yet does not exist in the same place at the same time.

You assert: Really?! Then would you please go back to yesterday and retrieve that ham sandwich you ate so that you can feed it to the homeless instead.

Have you not read Donne?


He wrote that 400 years ago. What a shame mankind had to wait all that time before you came onto the scene. Since you know where the lost years are, do you take requests? If so, may I have June, 1967? Bring me back a Saturday on my back at the beach. Much obliged.

And finally this final expression of ignorance: It’s called “infallible,” not inerrant. And I’d be untraditional if I believed the pope WAS NOT infallible, not believed that he WAS. And the pope being infallible has nothing whatsoever to do with him being wrong and evil and unworthy of being followed.

Again, are you so unlettered as to not have read Dante? An Italian poet who put the reigning pope of his day in hell where the devils walked on the skulls of his bishops. Was saintly Dante also untraditional? If so, I’m in good company. – Disdainfully, Albert the Traditional Catholic